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coptichymnsman
Posts: 387
Joined: Apr 21, 2003
Location: Sydney Australia NSW
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 Posted:
Sep 20, 2003 - 01:12 AM |
 
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Hey guys
i just wanna say something that happened and i witnessed it myself.
Once i was in a mass and there was a kid who was reading the acts or the Catholicon and he accidentally skipped two lines, well no one of us noticed except someone i really respect and he stood up "hey, you left two lines" and the kid was surprised he didn't even notice it, none of us did, deacons or a congregation, no one and sorry for what i am gonna say neither did Abouna, excepet this guy.
i was just wondering, is it just me who doesn't concentrate in mass, or is it a general problem....I feel it is not me because everyone else in the church didn't notice it , so i reckon its all the church or what...
Fady |
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rashi
Posts: 177
Joined: Mar 17, 2003
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl, USA
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| Posted:
Sep 20, 2003 - 09:00 AM |
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I agree with you that a lot of us don't listen to the readings in the Holy Mass,especially deacons  ..Is it because we think that we lead the congregation and don't need it or is just laziness 
Another problem that I noticed is the many mistakes in reading ..I see that here in Egypt ,and the problem is that no one even notices.....If the passage is read loudly,slowly and with no mistakes,it will be easier for us to understand ..
Farah Soliman  |
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Please pray for me,
Rasi
St John The Baptist Church, Miami , Fl
"For the joy of the Lord is your strength"Neh 8:10 |
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Sands81
Posts: 61
Joined: May 28, 2003
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Sep 22, 2003 - 10:01 AM |
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<><
Hey guys...
i wanted to point out, that our church doesn't say "Mass" that is mostly a Catholisism term. we usually say "Liturgy" meaning the "work of the congregation"
I too admit, i sometimes don't pay enough attention to what is going on before me in the liturgy. But i can say, it really think it depends on your spirituallity in the way you give pay attention to the serice in itself. We sometimes tend to think the liturgy is just something to look at, as if it were a play of some kind (i'm not saying everyone is like this)...
and we don't take the liturgy for what it's worth, the SACRIFCE that is being up there on the altar. It's the body & blood that we are gloriyfying, it's Christ who is on the altar, its the hymns and praising that is sung to confess to the light (God) that he is the true saviour of our souls!
The liturgy is UNITY with Christ.Some one once said the liturgy [i]"Is a window of eternity"Maybe we tend to not may attention as much, b/c we don't understand the liturgy we don't know enough to realize that it's the most precious thing is happening right in front of our eyes, The Body and blood that we all share.
For example, if i'm not practicing my Christian faith @ home, with friends, praying, meditating on God's word, having a personal relationship with Jesus...then WHEN I GO TO CHURCH, AM I REALLY GOING TO GET SOMETHING OUT OF IT? If my heart is on in it?
Well i'm just giving different sides, maybe as to why some people might have not payed enough attention to realize that the deacon missed a line or two. and on the other hand, maybe some were not familer with the acts or the Catholicon that was read that day.
But that is what i think, and yea i can relate to what you guys are saying.
Abouna Bishoy (from St. Mark's in DC once said)
"If we don't understand the liturgy, we don't know the church, then we don't know the precious offering on the altar, which is our Lord, Jesus Christ"
have a blessed week everyone! + <>< + <>< +
Your Jesus Friend,
Sands
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+Romans 12:2+
St. Mary Coptic Orthodox Church of Roanoke, Virginia |
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Sands81
Posts: 61
Joined: May 28, 2003
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| Posted:
Sep 22, 2003 - 10:13 AM |
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and if i can say something else...it's maybe just a simple act of distraction! If it was a crowded church, obviously there were probably so many things going on in the church, people we looking here and there..but again, i could go back to say from before....Having the true personal relationship with God, effects how you give your all or nothing to the liturgy, if effects your the way you sing or don't sing during the church service.
This is all just my opinion!
God bless... |
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+Romans 12:2+
St. Mary Coptic Orthodox Church of Roanoke, Virginia |
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coptichymnsman
Posts: 387
Joined: Apr 21, 2003
Location: Sydney Australia NSW
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| Posted:
Sep 22, 2003 - 09:19 PM |
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well, i addmit what you have said about the "MASS" and the "LITURGY"
it is just that i am not used to the english expressions of the church yet
about what you said that it can be just for distraction, well it sounds good enough. Thanx |
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mmatt95
Posts: 463
Joined: Jul 16, 2003
Location: COC of St. Mary, Abu Seifein, St Mina and Anba Mousa, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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| Posted:
Oct 30, 2003 - 10:55 AM |
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| rashi wrote: |
| I agree with you that a lot of us don't listen to the readings in the Holy Mass,especially deacons ..Is it because we think that we lead the congregation and don't need it or is just laziness |
Yep, you are totally right, at our church people mostly talk or sleep during the reading, problem is also that we read them only in arabic so the dutch-speaking members of the church don't understand!!! Guess this is just one of these things that occur everywhere and shouldn't occur  |
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Ps 119:9 Waarmede zal de jongeling zijn pad rein bewaren? Als hij dat houdt naar uw woord.
Ps 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
gb
-matt- |
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mmatt95
Posts: 463
Joined: Jul 16, 2003
Location: COC of St. Mary, Abu Seifein, St Mina and Anba Mousa, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Nov 16, 2003 - 01:57 PM |
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By the way, i figured that it's not a language problem: Today I read the gospell in dutch, and still nobody listened  |
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Ps 119:9 Waarmede zal de jongeling zijn pad rein bewaren? Als hij dat houdt naar uw woord.
Ps 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
gb
-matt- |
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maria
Posts: 130
Joined: Aug 06, 2003
Location: AMSTERDAM!
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Nov 16, 2003 - 02:04 PM |
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Matt, being a member of the same Church, what I myself find to be the problem is that the deacons arent reading, but mumbling!!! I hardly understand what they're saying! Sometimes I dont even bother trying to make an effort to listen  'cos I know I wont get far...I just go back home and read them over again! Its the wrong attitude I know... |
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'Be imatators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God'
-Eph 5:1- |
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mmatt95
Posts: 463
Joined: Jul 16, 2003
Location: COC of St. Mary, Abu Seifein, St Mina and Anba Mousa, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Nov 16, 2003 - 02:06 PM |
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HEY, I don't want to sound arrogant here, but when I read, I do read clearly!!!! |
_________________
Ps 119:9 Waarmede zal de jongeling zijn pad rein bewaren? Als hij dat houdt naar uw woord.
Ps 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
gb
-matt- |
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mmatt95
Posts: 463
Joined: Jul 16, 2003
Location: COC of St. Mary, Abu Seifein, St Mina and Anba Mousa, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Nov 16, 2003 - 02:11 PM |
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PS and still nobody listens, but i agree that the people that read should read and not mumble!! |
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Ps 119:9 Waarmede zal de jongeling zijn pad rein bewaren? Als hij dat houdt naar uw woord.
Ps 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
gb
-matt- |
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maria
Posts: 130
Joined: Aug 06, 2003
Location: AMSTERDAM!
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| Posted:
Nov 16, 2003 - 02:21 PM |
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Yea ure an exception, but most of 'em mumble, trust me... |
_________________
'Be imatators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God'
-Eph 5:1- |
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Mathitis
Posts: 1621
Joined: Oct 07, 2003
Location: "Legitimate" Business Headquarters
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Nov 16, 2003 - 02:24 PM |
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i hate it when they mumble or read VERY fast! |
_________________
For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned. - Matthew 12:37
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it! |
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mmatt95
Posts: 463
Joined: Jul 16, 2003
Location: COC of St. Mary, Abu Seifein, St Mina and Anba Mousa, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Nov 16, 2003 - 02:26 PM |
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Then you should defenitely come to our church!!!! |
_________________
Ps 119:9 Waarmede zal de jongeling zijn pad rein bewaren? Als hij dat houdt naar uw woord.
Ps 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
gb
-matt- |
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cyriliv
Posts: 155
Joined: Mar 19, 2003
Location: Detroit, Michigan
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| Posted:
Nov 16, 2003 - 02:35 PM |
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We've had similar problems in Detroit; however, the deacons have gone to great lengths to try to better the situation. This is what we did.
For a while the Sunday School and Youth servants have been encourging the youth to bring their Bibles to church; this allows them to actually see the readings instead of just listening to it. I found that when I read something, I learn it better than only hearing it.
Next, we only allow deacons who have clear, loud voices, who have good reading skills to read. This cuts out the mumbling; we kind of offended some people (because they were not chosen to read), but better to offend a few for the sake of the edification of many.
Last, some deacons began to print out the readings, starting from Vespers (asheya) to the gospel of the liturgy, and pass it out to the congregation. So, if people did not bring their Bibles, they could still read the readings.
I hope this helps.
Eiryny nem Agapy
Kerelloc
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Tradition is the living faith of the dead; traditionalism is the dead faith of the living. |
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mourad
Posts: 301
Joined: Nov 13, 2003
Location: Montreal, Canada
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Nov 16, 2003 - 11:32 PM |
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i think there's a big difference if the person has a relationship with the passage being read out or not. Think of the boring teacher / enthuastic teacher example, which do you think gets more attention from the students towards the material being delivered in a lecture?
Not to mention that proper prep time days b4 a reading is to be delivered is sometimes crucial and in some cases essential to guarantee a proper delivery (in my case it's always hopeless though  ). It gives the reader the time to get more acquainted with the passage, thus hopefully making it a part of himself as it is read and contemplated upon over and over b4 it is actually read in liturgy. Patrolgy gives depth as well.
just a two coppers worth.
every blessing,
mourad |
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D4thking
Posts: 6
Joined: Apr 23, 2003
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Nov 17, 2003 - 12:17 AM |
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I definitely agree that actually knowing what the reading means is essential to being able to present it properly. Because most people don't bring Bibles to church, they rely on the reader to not only articulate the words well but also to draw their attention to the main ideas of the passage. On top of that, if you’re reading something for the first time, you’re a lot less likely to be able to present it clearly in the first place; you would be more apt to stumble over a few words than if the passage was familiar to you. |
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micky
Posts: 23
Joined: Jul 31, 2003
Location: The Netherlands
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Nov 17, 2003 - 09:27 AM |
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he guys!
We have the same problem example every 29 of the coptic month is a little feast and it supossed to be chanted in feastal tune.Aboena and my mu'alim didnt notice at all and were chanting the anual hymns.I was the only one who noticed it, but iam shy to tell them so.
micky |
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mmatt95
Posts: 463
Joined: Jul 16, 2003
Location: COC of St. Mary, Abu Seifein, St Mina and Anba Mousa, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Nov 17, 2003 - 11:32 AM |
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| cyriliv wrote: |
| Next, we only allow deacons who have clear, loud voices, who have good reading skills to read. This cuts out the mumbling; we kind of offended some people (because they were not chosen to read), but better to offend a few for the sake of the edification of many. |
I couldn't think of a better way to make people listen  , but you have to admit that we r dealing with egyptians here: It's alway like "ishme3na howa". However it's not about the reading itself but about bringing a message from the bible to the congegration, so it shouldn't matter who reads, as long as the people can hear it clearly: but try explaining that to them!!  |
_________________
Ps 119:9 Waarmede zal de jongeling zijn pad rein bewaren? Als hij dat houdt naar uw woord.
Ps 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
gb
-matt- |
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maria
Posts: 130
Joined: Aug 06, 2003
Location: AMSTERDAM!
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Nov 17, 2003 - 04:10 PM |
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Yea but but if you ask me, those people who ask 'ishme3na howa' are usually mothers who want their sons on the highest platters. If you'd ask most of the deacons, they'll probably pass if they get a chance to read the Bible...(except you of course Matt, we all know you're an angel!  )
I think the deacons who are enthousiastic to read the Bible, are usually those who read it out load and clear and have the aim of bringing out the message to the congregation...so its only logic to make sure that those who are able to read the readings in a clear loud voice, should be given the 'priority' (if we may call it that...)
I mean, I've read millions of rooms here about how certain mu3limeens just stink at chanting hymns and then all the younger, more ambitious deacons get irritated 'cos they are not sticking to the tradition...well I get irritated for not being able to hear the words of God, in His own House.
This is my opinion...I'm wondering what yours are. |
_________________
'Be imatators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God'
-Eph 5:1- |
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Mathitis
Posts: 1621
Joined: Oct 07, 2003
Location: "Legitimate" Business Headquarters
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| Posted:
Nov 17, 2003 - 06:56 PM |
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a trick i use to listen to the gospels and the readings before the gospel is that i close my eyes, and focus only on what is being read. some sort of meditiation, and it really helps  |
_________________
For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned. - Matthew 12:37
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it! |
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dan
Posts: 17
Joined: Oct 22, 2003
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Nov 17, 2003 - 09:08 PM |
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what has worked in certain churches....is a projector, projecting the reading on a screen for the congregation
with a simple powerpoint presentation...all can read the reading, and as such focus on the reading reguardless of the voice of the reader...
just a suggestion |
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Mathitis
Posts: 1621
Joined: Oct 07, 2003
Location: "Legitimate" Business Headquarters
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Nov 17, 2003 - 09:16 PM |
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a good suggestion, actually! |
_________________
For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned. - Matthew 12:37
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it! |
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Mechaiel
Posts: 251
Joined: Feb 03, 2003
Location: Perth, WESTERN AUSTRALIA
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Nov 17, 2003 - 11:27 PM |
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I agree with Mourad. The reader should be prepared by pre-reading the passages before the liturgy. I also definately agree with cyriliv in that only deacons with a loud clear voice and good reading skills should read. I quite often find myself in Maria's situation, where if there's poor reading, I switch off and don't listen. What's even worse is when the reader CANNOT read. Eg Little kids: that's just torture for me and the rest of the congregation.
I wish to correct myself, I'll tell everyone what's worse: if a deacon reads a word incorrectly so as to change the meaning into something completely different! |
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Pray for me
Mechaiel Farag |
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Mathitis
Posts: 1621
Joined: Oct 07, 2003
Location: "Legitimate" Business Headquarters
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| Posted:
Nov 18, 2003 - 06:09 AM |
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well, at my church, there's one of our deacons, and he is doing something that i support him at 100%.
he calls the reader, maybe like tuesday and tells the reader that you will read so-and-so. it works perfectly.
he told me in advance of 2 weeks what i will be reading. by doing so, there is no more confusion. |
_________________
For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned. - Matthew 12:37
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it! |
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mmatt95
Posts: 463
Joined: Jul 16, 2003
Location: COC of St. Mary, Abu Seifein, St Mina and Anba Mousa, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Nov 18, 2003 - 12:47 PM |
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We actually do this same thing with the Nativity feats and resurrection, and then only the deacons who can read clearly get to read: i know it works, but on regular sundays it's always less organised => i don't know why because the previously described method works Ey miriam, why don't you ask abouna to organise this for every sunday  |
_________________
Ps 119:9 Waarmede zal de jongeling zijn pad rein bewaren? Als hij dat houdt naar uw woord.
Ps 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
gb
-matt- |
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