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ksarah12
Posts: 616
Joined: Mar 19, 2004
Location: Toledo, OH
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Dec 29, 2004 - 06:03 PM |
 
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Hey guys! K...here we go again! Does a priest actually have the right to deny anyone communion? Is that only an orthodox (Coptic, actually) perspective? Some people believe during the Last Supper, Christ gave everyone (all 12 apostles) the Holy Communion, and some believe He only gave 11, not Judas. If He gave all communion, than a priest does not have the right to deny anyone communion, if not…does he?
Here's a great article a friend of mine sent me that gives good proof that Judas did not partake of the Holy Communion. It is Pope Shenouda's response to Abouna Matta's book, The Eucharist - The Lord's Supper, in which Sayedna refutes the idea that Judas attended the Lord's Supper:
In page 239, he [Abouna Matta] says, "Judas lived in peace, hiding in the darkness of his works, his hypocrisies, and his deceptions all the days [of his life]. He [Judas] ate and drank with the Disciples and the Lord without any barrier or harm, except during the hour in which the mystery of the slain love was revealed in the eucharistical supper. When the sop entered his mouth, the grace, power, and shield departed [from him], and the Spirit which he had accepted from the Lord was stripped away from him. [Therefore] Satan entered into him, blinding his sight and darknening the world around him, to the extent that he hung himself."
And we say that the sop which Judas took was not the Mystery of the Eucharist.
When the Lord was asked about the individual who betray Him, "[H]e answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me" (Matthew 26:23 KJV). This is the account of Saint Matthew the Evangelist. The account of Saint Mark is similar; "And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish" (Mark 14:20 KJV). The term "dippeth in the dish" does not imply at all the communion, of which the Lord says: Take eat, this is My Body...Take drink, this is My Blood.
As for the term "sop" which appeared in the Gospel of [Saint] John, when the Lord answered the question of who would betray Him; "Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. And after the sop Satan entered into him...He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night" (John 13: 26-30 KJV).
The term "dip" occurs twice, and does not imply his [Judas'] [partaking of the] communion. [In regards to the] communion, the Bible describes it with the term "brake it, and gave it" (Matthew 26:26 KJV). This very _expression appears almost exactly in the First Epistle to the Corinthians; "[He] took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you..." (1 Corinthians 11 :23,24 KJV). Also in communing the cup, [He said] "take drink," and not dipped the sop.
As for the terms "dips the sop" and "dipped the sop," these refer to the partaking of the Passover lamb, and not of the Mystery of the Eucharist.
(Refer to the introduction to the Katamarous of Maundy Thursday).
On the night of Maundy Thursday, there was the Passover supper, and the Lord's Supper (the Mystery of the Eucharist), and praises in between the two suppers. Judas had attended the Passover supper, took the sop, and Satan entered into him. He immediately went out - and it was night - and he did not attend the Mystery of the Eucharist.
The Passover supper was not a normal supper, but it was rather a symbol of the sacrifice of Christ (1 Corinthians 5:7). When Judas partook of the symbol unworthily, he was not allowed to partake of the prototype (the body and blood). He [then] left, and the Lord offered this great Mystery to the eleven.
"Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Matthew 13:43 KJV).
It was illogical for the Master to offer His Body and Blood to Judas.
He [Our Lord] had declared that "it had been good for that man if he had not been born" (Matthew 26:24 KJV). How then could He have given [Judas] of [the things] which He had referred to previously saying, "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him" (John 6:56 KJV); "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:54 KJV)!!!
How could He commune him [Judas], and give him an opportunity to become "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" "not discerning the Lord's body", according to the Apostle's saying (1 Corinthians 11: 27,29 KJV)!! How could He commune him, when He had declared about him during the washing of the feet that he is impure?! He [Our Lord] said to the Disciples, "He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. For he knew who should betray him" (John 13: 10,11 KJV).
If Satan had entered into Judas when he merely partook of a sop from the Passover supper, how [then] could he partake of the Lord's Body in the Mystery of the Eucharist, after having been possessed by Satan?! It is sufficient that he partook of the Passover celebration.
However, the Bible passages concerning the Last Supper make it seem like he DID partake of the communion. Only the book of John is iffy...any takers? Thanks guys! |
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Sarah Khalil
Dear Lord, do not let me be parted from you. Take me back and guide me along the paths of righteousness for your Name's sake. |
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pyoussef
Posts: 114
Joined: Nov 17, 2003
Location: Boston, MA
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Dec 29, 2004 - 07:13 PM |
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hey sarah, i would say that the only one that is really questionable is st luke. the other ones state clearly that Judas was addressed in the betrayal before he broke the bread and wine. I also dont think the bread dipping wasnot communion because it says "after supper" (or passover supper) he took wine and bread which shows they were eating right beforehand.
but whether or not he was there is sort of besides the point. Taking communion is a serious thing. It says in corinthians that if we are taking communion unworthily we will be guilty of the body and blood of our Lord. this is not a light thing. It was said that people became sick and died from holy communion. So abouna should do what is in his power to preserve his own congregation from receiving judgement from God by taking the body and blood when there is iniquity in their hearts.
consider in the genesis after adam and eve commit sin and began to know evil. God was very certain to guard the tree of life with an angel holding a flaming sword. Communion is where we eat of the immortal tree of life, Abouna should also act similar to this angel preserving the holy only for the holies.
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Grigorii
Posts: 317
Joined: May 15, 2004
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Dec 30, 2004 - 01:55 AM |
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Dearest to Christ Sarah Khalil,
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| However, the Bible passages concerning the Last Supper make it seem like he DID partake of the communion. Only the book of John is iffy...any takers? |
Sure! lol
Uhm,.. I would be interrested in knowing what exactly Abuna Matta wrote? Cos Pope Shenouda's exegesis is uhm,.. well it fails to convince me (at least). It seems to be a rather forced explanation (not to use the term eisegesis). I think the bare Gospel stories quite straightforwardly imply that Judas did partake of Holy Communion.
The consequences of his partaking of Communion unworthily add to his ultimate demise, I'de say. But he was allowed Communion precisely to complete the depth of his betrayal, and to fulfil the depth of Jesus' abandonment and suffering. I think it is part of the Mystery of Jesus suffering in general that he who partook of Him most intimately, came to betray Him (in fulfilment of the prophecy of Psalm 41, 10).
Is there an online source where I can find Abuna Matta's explanation?
IC XC
Grigorii |
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IC XC
Grigorii
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"Conversion is the ascent away from the movement and away from vice and ignorance towards knowledge of the Blessed Trinity."
Kephalaia Gnostica, VI,19
St. Evagrios the Solitary
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mmatt95
Posts: 463
Joined: Jul 16, 2003
Location: COC of St. Mary, Abu Seifein, St Mina and Anba Mousa, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Dec 30, 2004 - 11:25 AM |
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I recall listening to a sermon about the passion week in general by fr matthias nasr, and he explained how such a supper was organised etc. I cant remember the details, but his conclusion also was that Judas did take from the Body but not the Blood.
After the sermons people asked him during the questions-round why the pope said otherwise, and he said that he just explained how it worked back then. |
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Ps 119:9 Waarmede zal de jongeling zijn pad rein bewaren? Als hij dat houdt naar uw woord.
Ps 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
gb
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ksarah12
Posts: 616
Joined: Mar 19, 2004
Location: Toledo, OH
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Jan 02, 2005 - 05:37 PM |
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Hey guys, thanks a lot for you responses. pyoussef, I agree with you that this all is really beside the point. I mean, yes you can argue it CAN make a difference...but how are we going to ever really know? Personally, I think the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke lean toward Judas taking communion, while John leans toward him not. Others may dissagree...it happens.  But once again, thank you! And Grigorii, I'm sorry I can't get you exactly what Abouna Matta wrote, all I know is the book he wrote it in is called The Eucharist - The Lord's Supper. Thanks again guys!  |
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Sarah Khalil
Dear Lord, do not let me be parted from you. Take me back and guide me along the paths of righteousness for your Name's sake. |
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Biboboy
Posts: 726
Joined: Sep 28, 2004
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Jan 05, 2005 - 10:03 AM |
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Agape,
Let's put all the Gospel verses together:
"When it was evening, he took his place with the twelve; and while they were eating, he said, 'Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me.' And they became greatly distressed and began to say to him one after another, 'Surely not I, Lord?' He answered, 'The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me...' While they were eating, Jesus took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to the disciples..." (Mt. 26: 20-23, 26).
"On the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb is sacrificed... When it was evening, he came with the twelve. And when they has taken their places and were eating, Jesus said, 'Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me.' They began to be distressed and to say to him one after another, 'Surely, not I?' He said to them, 'It is one of the twelve, one who is dipping bread into the bowl with me...' While they were eating, he took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to them..." (Mk. 14:12, 17-20, 22).
"When the hour came, he took his place at the table, and the apostles with him. He said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; for I tell you, I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God." Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he said, "Take this and divide it among yourselves; for I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. But see, the one who betrays me is with me, and his hand is on the table" (Lk. 22:14-21).
"Now before the festival of the Passover, Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart from this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end. The devil had already put it into the heart of Judas son of Simon Iscariot to betray him. And during supper Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going to God, got up from the table, took off his outer robe, and tied a towel around himself. Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel that was tied around him... Jesus said to him, "One who has bathed does not need to wash, except for the feet, but is entirely clean. And you are clean, though not all of you." For he knew who was to betray him; for this reason he said, "Not all of you are clean..." But it is to fulfill the scripture, "The one who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me..." After saying this Jesus was troubled in spirit, and declared, "Very truly, I tell you, one of you will betray me." The disciples looked at one another, uncertain of whom he was speaking. One of his disciples—the one whom Jesus loved—was reclining next to him; Simon Peter therefore motioned to him to ask Jesus of whom he was speaking. So while reclining next to Jesus, he asked him, "Lord, who is it?" Jesus answered, "It is the one to whom I give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." So when he had dipped the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas son of Simon Iscariot. After he received the piece of bread, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, "Do quickly what you are going to do..." So, after receiving the piece of bread, he immediately went out. And it was night (Jn. 13:1-5, 10-11, 18, 21-27, 30).
Alright then, let's see what we get when we put the whole story together:
1- It was a passover meal (supper) at night, the first day of the Unleavened Bread.
2- First, all the twelve sat around the table with Christ.
3- Christ took a cup first (according to St. Luke) and after the thanksgiving he gave it to them. This was called the "Cup of Blessing." Judas was still there.
4- Christ took bread, gave thanks, broke, and gave it to all of them. Judas was still there and ate with them.
5- While they were eating, Christ got up, girded himself with a towel, and washed the feet of the twelve - including Judas (as we find in St. John's Gospel).
6- After this, they continued to eat the passover meal. Christ was troubled, and mentioned the betrayal of the one who will take the bread that was dipped in the bowl. Judas was certainly there.
7- After giving Judas the bread that was dipped in the bowl, Christ told him to do what he had to do quickly. At this point, Judas left, and no one knew why he had to leave at that point.
8- Finally, after supper, Christ took the cup and gave thanks, blessed, and gave it to the disciples.
The above is the most common order, but some find it difficult to maintain points 7 and 8, since in St. Luke's Gospel Christ mentioned that after the supper, when He gave the disciples the cup of His Blood, Christ mentions that the betrayer is still on the table, whereas St. John's Gospel mentions that after taking the bread, Judas left immediately. It may be possible that Christ gave Judas the bread after the cup, but it is highly unlikely, since supper was over already. In all cases, however, Judas surely partook of the Body of Christ, but from St. John's Gospel we see that he did not partake of the Blood of Christ.
Therefore, Judas took the Body of Christ, unworthily, and his feet was washed by Christ, again unworthily. But he did not partake of the Blood of Christ. There's nothing wrong or unbelievable about Judas taking communion (i.e. the Body, but not the Blood), but I think that there is a great lesson in that! For example, here's what St. John Chrysostom had to say:
On Holy and Great Thursday
An Instruction of St. John Chrysostom
ON THE HOLY COMMUNION
OR THE PARTAKING OF THE BODY AND BLOOD OF THE LORD: TO KINGS AND PRINCES,
AND TO ALL ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS
From the book of sermons attributed to St. John
Chrysostom, entitled "The Golden Mouth"
If a King or a prince should go to a city, the inhabitants thereof meet
him. And we should also do in like manner, inasmuch as the only-begotten and co-unoriginate Son of God comes down from heaven to mortal men. Now He has come to undergo His voluntary Passion for the sake of our salvation. We should meet Him with a pure conscience and receive Him spiritually by partaking of the Holy Mysteries. Ye who now wish to approach the holy and awesome Sacrament, listen and learn how to receive the Holy Things, before which the heavenly powers tremble, and the cherubim, seraphim, and all angelic hosts are filled with fear, as they offer their spiritual sacrifice to God. Representing the angelic hosts, priests stand before the holy, dread and wondrous divine table, on which lie the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, first set forth by our Lord and Saviour Himself. For on this day the Lord reclined at supper with His twelve disciples, saying: "Take, eat; this is My Body, which is broken for you, for the remission of sins." Taking also the cup, He said: "Drink of it, all of you; this is My Blood of the new testament, Which is shed for you and for many for the remission of sins." Understand, then, that He did not say "For the Apostles alone," but for all who believe on Him. Having risen from supper, Jesus took a towel and girded Himself with it, and washed the feet of the disciples; He also washed the feet of the traitor, lest it later be said that he betrayed Him because He deprived him of the supper and did not wash his feet equally with the others. O the humility and kindliness of the Lord! The Lord served His servants; knowing who was to betray Him, He did not say to him, "Get out, traitor." All these things did the Creator perform, to give us an image of humility and benignity. When Judas left to summon the Jews, in order that he might betray the Lord to them, the Lord at this time imparted many most wonderful teachings to the Apostles. Thus it behooves us also to fast and to pray at the time of Communion: beforehand, that we may receive worthily, and afterwards, that we may not dishonour the Sacrament. To return again to former evil deeds on the next morning, the next day, or the following day, is called dishonour. As when a man with an unhealthy stomach takes pleasant food, he ruins everything, and causes greater illness, so it is with Holy Communion. If a man receive it unworthily, having evil misdeeds, envy, wrath, remembrance of wrongs, or lawless fornication on his conscience, he is vouchsafed greater torment. If one is unclean, he is not worthy to receive Communion even on feast days. The Apostle Paul says that whosoever communes unworthily "eateth and drinketh damnation to himself." (1 Cor. 11:29) He who takes the Mysteries of Christ carelessly rather gives the demons a place within himself, just as Satan entered into Judas the traitor after he received the sop of bread (cf. John 13:26-27). But they that receive Christ's Mysteries with fear, humility and repentancesuch receive them unto the remission of sins. If anyone has serious sinswicked robberies, or lechery, or envy, or wrath, and all the other forms of wickedness and if he does not give them up, if he does not accept a penance (Greek: epitémia), he is unworthy to partake of the Holy Mysteries of Christ. If a man receive them with the fear of God, he will be pardoned, but
if he receive hypocritically, with malice, he shall be condemned together with Judas. Thus, O ye faithful, let us receive the Body and Blood of the Lord unto the remission of sins, the sanctification of the soul and eternal life, that we may be sharers with the Apostles and come to dwell with them in the joy of heaven. Let none of you be malicious like Judas; he supped with Christ while planning to betray Him; he stayed with the Apostles while he made denunciations to the Jews. And let none of you, brethren, receive without discerning the Body of Christ, for it is not mere bread and wine, but the true Body and Blood of the Lord. Since man cannot eat raw flesh and drink blood, the Lord offered His Body in the species of bread, and His Blood in the species of wine, but in no other wine than that with which priests perform the Liturgy and offer to God the holy and bloodless sacrifice. Therefore, brethren, we cannot receive Communion unprepared, but with love, unfeigned love. Which of you wishes to receive the Body and Blood of the Lord? If thou holdest anger against anyone, first go and be reconciled, and then receive; or if thou hast quarrelled with anyone, and not asked forgiveness; if thou hast not refrained thy tongue from idle words; if thou hast caused anyone to quarrel with another; if thou hast envied anyone; and hast not made repentance of these things, do not approach the Holy Things. It is impossible for the unworthy man even to gaze upon them, as also to receive them. Be not like Judas, who, being unworthy, received Communion; he fell into incurable illness, and was condemned to eternal torment. O ye faithful, let us bestir ourselves virtuously, purifying ourselves with fasting, prayer and almsgiving, that we may worthily receive the most pure Mysteries and be counted worthy to stand at the right side of God's throne, and to receive God's mercy in this life, and to attain to His Resurrection with joy, glorifying Him together with the Father and the most holy Spirit, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."
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In Christ,
Bishoy |
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ksarah12
Posts: 616
Joined: Mar 19, 2004
Location: Toledo, OH
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| Posted:
Jan 05, 2005 - 06:09 PM |
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Thanks Bishoy That helps... |
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Sarah Khalil
Dear Lord, do not let me be parted from you. Take me back and guide me along the paths of righteousness for your Name's sake. |
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