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maherkaldas
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Jan 13, 2003 - 04:21 AM |
 
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[quote="Paul Samaan"],
I like to start with the Institute, because I believe it is the standard we should all follow".[\quote]
HI,
IF I MAY DESCEND, I DISAGREE WITH YOU ON THIS.
FOR TWO REASONS:
(1) THE HICS ALWAYS LEAVES THINGS OUT FROM THERE RECORDINGS. SO YOU CAN NOT COUNT ON ITS THINGS AS THE ULTIMATE SOURCE.
(2) IT HAS BEEN PROVEN TO BE ACCURATE MORE THAN THE HICS IS M.TAWFIK AND YOU SEE TODAY THERE ARE THINGS THE HICS DID NOT RECORD ON ITS RECORDS COMING OUT. |
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Last edited by maherkaldas on Jul 03, 2003 - 03:23 AM; edited 2 times in total |
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PaulS
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Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony Coptic Orthodox Church in Norco, CA
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Jan 13, 2003 - 04:40 AM |
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You're more than welcome to disagree, Maher.
However, coming out of the Institute, it's almost common knowledge that Cairo is the real mecca of hymns. The mu'allimeen who are outside of Cairo were shunned back in the day of Mu'allim Mikhail and they are still somewhat shunned now. For example, listen to the recording on the life of M. Sadek. You will see his attitude towards mu'allimeen from other localities.
Of course, Mu'allim Tewfik was an exception, because Mu'allim Mikhail welcomed and embraced him. However, as Mu'allim Sadek points out, even Mu'allim Tewfiks tunes were somewhat different than those of Mu'allim Mikhail.
So, my general belief is that the Institute, which received its tradition directly from Mu'allim Mikhail, should be the first priority. In the event that the Institute did not record a hymn, then we can of course look to other mu'allimeen, because a different hymn in hand is better than no hymn at all. In the case of the Apocalypse, though, the Institute's recording appears to be complete. Since I know the Institute received its tradition from Mu'allim Mikhail, I will go by what they say.
Finally, since I possess almost everything Mu'allim Tewfik has recorded and respect him as a teacher greatly, I will add one more point. I think this new trend among deacons to flock to Mu'allim Tewfik stems from the fact that (a) he's different and (b) he's the only remaining great mu'allim alive. With respect to (a), I've seen many deacons do things in liturgies and elsewhere just to be different, regardless of whether it's right. Their wisdom is that if they can say a hymn differently, they will somehow wow everyone else or prove themselves to be more knowledgeable or something (I really don't know what's going on in their minds). Since Mu'allim Tewfik says things a bit differently, it's now the "cool" thing to do. With respect to (b), because Mu'allim Tewfik is the last great cantor alive, he is getting a lot of attention from our hymns-thirsty deacons who were not part of the generation that preserved hymns. It's an understandable reaction, since we all want to go out there and absorb everything so we can preserve our wonderful heritage.
The reality, however, is that Mu'allim Mikhail's way has endured for the longest time, and as Mu'allim Sadek points out, he received all of his hymns from the "correct" and "old" sources when he was alive. Because he was really the first meaningful professor at the Institute, and because he taught the teachers who taught the teachers that teach today, I am inclined to go with the Institute whenever there is a conflict.
That's just my view, of course, and what I do with my own deacons at church. Other people may have different views, which we should all respect. |
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maherkaldas
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| Posted:
Jan 13, 2003 - 05:00 AM |
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PAUL,
AS A GENERAL IDEA WHAT YOU SAY MAKES SENSE. BUT i am NOT SAYING THAT WE SHOULD TAKE THE HICS AS THE BIBLE OF HYMNS. THERE SHOULD BE A SECOND SOURCE WHICH IN MY OPINION SHOULD BE ONE OF THREE M.FAHIM.SADEK AND TAWFIK. HOWEVER WHEN YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE LONG HYMNS THAT HAD BEEN THERE AND NO ONE HAD RECORDED IT EXCEPT M. TAWFIK AND IT HAS BEEN KNOWN LONG BEFORE THE DEPARTURE OF M. MIKHAIL IT IS SAFE TO SAY THAT THESE HYMNS WERE KNOWN BUT NEVER BEEN USED IN CAIRO FOR VARIETY OF REASONS. BUT THEY ARE AUTHENTIC AND ACCURATE.
LIKE : ALI EL ASSAR, EVOL HITEN, HITEN,SHERE PRXIS EL KIBIR, TI SHORI GOOD FRIDAY, PANOUTE PANOUTE, ALI EL KORPAN, EL TARH EL KIBIR, EL TARHIM EL KIROLOSY, OUOH NAI, MAKADIMAT EL MAGMA EL KIROLOSY IT HAS BEEN PROVEN THAT THE GREAT MASTER IS A VERY HONEST ONE. BUT TO GO FOR THE DIFFERENT STUFF FROM THE KNOWN ONES because it is COOL IT IS A TREND THAT I DISLIKE AND IT IS A DANGEROUS PATH TO TAKE. |
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PaulS
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Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony Coptic Orthodox Church in Norco, CA
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Jan 13, 2003 - 05:04 AM |
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Of course, Maher. That's what I meant when I said, "A different hymn in your hand is better than no hymn at all."
If Mu'allim Mikhail and the Institute did not record a certain hymn for whatever reason, and Mu'allim Mikhail did, then we have no choice but to accept Mu'alim Tewfik's version. To avoid doing so would result in the loss of one of our hymns, which we cannot have.
On the other hand, if 90% of the churches say, for example, Apinav Shopi in the Institute/Mu'allim Mikhail way, then I won't go out and adopt Mu'allim Tewfik's different way just for the heck of it. We all know that Mu'allim Mikhail is as close to the Bible of hymns as we can get. |
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Ramez Mikhail
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sep 15, 2002
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Jan 13, 2003 - 05:11 AM |
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i dont wanna sound stupid....but i learn AND say what ever i think sounds koool
not to say that this is not dangerous   |
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Ramez
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Ramez Mikhail
Posts: 1783
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Jan 13, 2003 - 06:27 PM |
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but wait a minute...why do u guys just label mllm mikhail and his students versions as the ultimate correct way and mllm tawfik's version as a rather unacceptable way?? i say it is normal that there will be much differences between hymns in different places in egypt and that doesnt mean there is a right and wrong one...i believe mllm tawfik's ti shory is much more expressive and suitable to the occasion that the other one we use in cairo which is a collection of tunes from different hymns
and please...i really believe mllm tawfik is way more knowledgeable than mllm sadek or fahim....only farag rivals him
by the way..i always had ere pi esmoo and banooty banooty by the same recording and didnt know it was mllm farag |
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Ramez
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Ramez Mikhail
Posts: 1783
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Jan 14, 2003 - 03:12 PM |
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so back to my discussion, what differences do u guys have in apocalypse between ur churches and HICS? i dont think it is gonna be as different as mine 8) |
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Ramez
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PaulS
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Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony Coptic Orthodox Church in Norco, CA
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Jan 14, 2003 - 05:39 PM |
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Yeah, you're just a weird one, Ramez.
j/k... what are the differences you have so far? |
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Ramez Mikhail
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Jan 14, 2003 - 06:41 PM |
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ok...here is the deal..i already had the tape from egypt so all that is old news for me, but here is how we say it:
+in third hoos, the tune of evlogite is almost like the rest of the verses but with some tweaks, and we say the reply in greek and arabic during the hoos unlike archangel micheal where they say the whole hoos in coptic with the greek reply and then someone reads the hoos in arabic and they reply to him in arabic.
+ fr youssef actually was responsible for the whole service until 2 years ago when he started going to europe for the holy week, so he said all stuff and he said it his way
+that goes for psalm 151 which he used to say with his own tune whicj he either made up or learned in malawi. the tune has absolutely nothing to do with the original tune we all know but it is nice though
+in revelation, all replies r said by him in a tune kinda like the regular fada'el but with some tweaks too so it is slightly different.
+all vision replies are said unlike here wehere they only say the refrain
+aleiloia in the revelation is not like evlogimenos..it is a completely diffrerent tune that has things in common with festal agios but is nonthe less very short compared with evlogimenos aleiloia..it is like 5 seconds long....he also says the same aleiloia in psalm 151 which goes nice with his different tune.
+tribes r said one at a time, each tribe reply after the reader mentions it not thee at a time.
+same thing with the visions which we say in arabic only one at a time
this is all fr youssef's way, but one year we had my institute hymn teacher present who is actually from beni suef...he says things even more differently...it goes as far as new replies not found in books not just different tunes...but that is another story |
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Ramez
St. Cyril of Alexandria COC |
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Ramez Mikhail
Posts: 1783
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Jan 15, 2003 - 08:15 PM |
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so..any comments? paul? maher?
i am expecting maher especially to have something to say about this since he sure is well experienced in different hymns from different places, so maher, did any of the things i hae said ring a bell?
oh..by the way, does anybody knows anything about the reply anok ainav? some people said it should be said in the same fada'el tune and i think ibrahim released it this way, but i heared that this reply have its own special tune or else it would have been mentioned in the books that it is said in the fada'el tune |
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Ramez
St. Cyril of Alexandria COC |
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Ramez Mikhail
Posts: 1783
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Jan 16, 2003 - 06:42 PM |
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what happened everybody.....the efferevescence is fading these days, havent seen any posts or replies for some days 8O 8O |
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Ramez
St. Cyril of Alexandria COC |
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Jan 17, 2003 - 12:08 AM |
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Me being the harbringer of effervescence 
well, as i said before, ive only been involved in learning hymns for the past 8 or 9 months so i cant say much on this matter. i attended my first abu ghalamsees in st. marks in london and looking at the hymns page on here, we said most of the stuff. however i know that it will definitely sound different cuz our lead deacon here is an Alexandrian and everything he chants is different to what I have heard on here. Just goes to say how right Muallem Sadek was about this in his interview (if anyone is interested, i can tell u here or in another post about the other hymns that i have heard here chanted differently)
For example, the Pi Epnevma he taught me and others is very different than the standard HICS one found on here. It's very much like Reda Barsoum's one but a bit more refined.
my two cents... |
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PaulS
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Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony Coptic Orthodox Church in Norco, CA
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Jan 17, 2003 - 02:35 AM |
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Well, I find the whole area of different hymns interesting, because the focus of Ragheb Moftah and the patriarchs, institutions, and private citizens that backed him was the uniformity of Coptic hymns.
So they recorded many of the hymns and called them "official," because they came from the great Mu'allim Mikhail, who was a walking encyclopedia, i.e., a source more reliable than anyone else out there. Following this great achievement, churches for the most part followed suit and deferred to the "standards."
Now that we are uncovering more and more materials with different tunes on them--like Mu'allim Tewfik--everyone is rushing to pretty much undo what the Institute did for us in terms of uniformity.
Is this right? |
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Jan 17, 2003 - 02:38 AM |
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definitely. Just speaking to a friend of mine about it today. His view along with many people is that HICS is not the standard and maybe we should not have a standard. Let's be individual and do things as we learn it.
Doesn't this go against the tradition of uniformity in our hymnology and on a larger sense Orthodoxy itself? This individualism...
mina. |
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PaulS
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Jan 17, 2003 - 02:45 AM |
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I believe a lot of deacons disparage the Institute, because they want to be different; as if being unique gives them a stronger sense of identity or something.
From a strictly realist point-of-view, however, I think if there is one organization out there that can unite our hymns, it is the Institute. We should encourage it and have hope in it. More importantly, we should accept it when it rejects one version of a hymn for another. Otherwise, how can it do its job effectively? |
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Jan 17, 2003 - 02:47 AM |
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Definitely. The question is then what kind of practical Christian, Orthodox steps can we take to promote the Institute and to get people to standardize the hymns? |
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Ramez Mikhail
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Jan 17, 2003 - 05:00 AM |
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by the way...i learned pi ebnevma from reda barsoum's tape...i dont really see a difference between him and anybody else 8)
i really think that standardized hymns is really important..but what is standard?? did god say a different ti shory is a blasphemy? i guess it is just a matter of customs..but ideally speaking we should all follow HICS "standard" hymns...unless the church we r serving in learned something differently, then we really shouldnt try to change it.i mean i did that a lot with all hymns in egypt but honestly it was just to look more knowledgeable and different..and sometimes cuz the standard version sounded much nicer....besides for ti shory for example, the institute does have it on tape, so that means that it is formally aknowledged as a legitimate hymn...also for evol hiten which the chorus just learned a couple of years ago..by the way, i heared that HICS released the longer ti shory just becuase ibrahim released the other one....so they aknowledge both as real hymns |
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Ramez
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Jan 17, 2003 - 09:36 AM |
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no ya ramez... i think u may have misunderstood me n paul...
this has nothing to do with blasphemy. always remember, the hymnology and the church life is simply the part of the means to try to get to heaven, not the end.
what we are saying is that we have to respect and uphold the tradition of Mlm. Mikhail's hymnology. We shouldn't just shun the HICS because people won't budge. Thats the whole point of imitating Dr. Ragheb Meftah and going against the tide to make change. Also, if we have no standard, then how do we decide if something is right or wrong? There needs to be a standard in order to discern hymns that get discovered along the way.
It may not be easy in the beginning, but it can happen if we all persist. And this is a two-pronged approach: breaking people's conception about the HICS and promoting its official version of hymns. |
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Pharaoh
Posts: 142
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Jan 17, 2003 - 02:07 PM |
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Well concerning Tishoory, Ragheb Moftah himself stated that Mlm. Mikhail knew two versions of it and that both were recorded. |
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Ramez Mikhail
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sep 15, 2002
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Jan 17, 2003 - 03:03 PM |
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sorry everybody...i was just sleepy  
but how do u guys know what versions did mllm mikhail aknowledge? not all hymns were recorded by him
nah....i am just teasing |
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Ramez
St. Cyril of Alexandria COC |
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Jan 17, 2003 - 03:53 PM |
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e7na mesh hankhalas ba2a! 
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PaulS
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Jan 17, 2003 - 04:58 PM |
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Since Mu'allim Tewfik himself chants the other Tishouri on the HICS tapes, I don't know why we're even discussing it.
This is about the other stuff! |
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PaulS
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Jan 17, 2003 - 05:01 PM |
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Just for clarification, I would adopt this rule:
IF the HICS chorus recorded one version of a hymn--like Pi-epnevma--then we should stick with that version irrespective of how many other version pop up later.
IF the HICS chorus did not record a hymn--and they didn't record a lot--then it is acceptable to adapt these hymns from the big sources, like M. Tewfik, Faheem, Farag, etc.
The point is that chanting HICS-recorded hymns in a different way goes directly against the point of HICS, M. Mikhail, and Dr. Moftah's mission. |
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Ramez Mikhail
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Jan 17, 2003 - 08:17 PM |
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the problem even exceeds ti shory...i just remembered that most of the stuff i used to say in egypt just to be different...oh yeah..we used to be the weired group of deacons back in egypt 8) ...was actually stuff from the HICS tapes, but it was also not welcomed in my church...have u guys noticed that esmoo epchois in the HICS tapes is really different than ibrahim tapes? it is mllm tawfik's version i believe...also the long festal psalm 150 is not at all welcomed in my church in egypt and they were all HICS hymns,
one funny thing....the old moallem in my church learned all his hymns from mllm farag, and he used to fight us like really fighting cuz we wanted to say everything HICS way...like he heavely attacked evol hiten and he didnt even know about a long festal psalm 150 and he almost beated me up when i said it....here is what he used to tell us about the institute:
"ya baba...the institute is like an antika museum run for the sole purpose of looking for perished hymns that nobody uses anymore and we shouldnt say everything they record in their tapes cuz it all like old folklore music"
of course i dont agree with him, but i thought it is funny what he said...he was a clerical college student not the institute, and he basically attacked the HICS and ibrahim for changing our heritage...he even never wanted to listen to ibrahim;s tapes....he had a farag version of ti epistooly and he never heared the other version
but wait a minute...i thought i wrote "apocalypse" as a title for this post...why r we talikng all over again about HICS and the valididty of their hymns? |
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Stephen
Posts: 54
Joined: Jan 15, 2003
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Jan 18, 2003 - 01:03 AM |
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Hey guys - my name is Stephen from New York (i'm 25). I was home sick from work yesterday and I think I read through every single one of the forum topics. I was amazed that every single thing you guys discussed is stuff i've wondered about myself or talked about w/ others. I'm so glad i found this site - I didn't think there were any others out there who were as psycho as me w/ this! Anyway - to stick to the topic at hand - at my church we don't have a moalem (which has its advantages and disadvantages). one good thing about that though is we learn everything from the HICS (w/ some Ibrahim Ayed exceptions, like great lent). So for Apocolypse - we say everything from the HICS. We even do Anok Pe Pi Kogi just as it is on the tapes all the way through the end (i think that's m. Tewfik who says the rest of it - my favorite recording ever). We say all the Revelations responses in Coptic as well. Though it is hard to say Evlogite like they do in the 3rd hos - it's just so rhythmically unnatural - i think we got the hang of it this past year. By the way, is it ok to visit an older topic and add a note to it? Anyway - i look forward to talking to and learning from you guys more. |
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