copticheritage.org :: To Protect and Preserve. (PNphpBB2)

Integrated Coptic Orthodox Forums

Author

Message

egydave

Posts: 111

Joined: Aug 30, 2005
Location: Rhode Island, USA

Posted: Jan 02, 2006 - 06:19 PM

Hey guys,
First off i wanted to say that i wish evry 1 has a happy new year and merry christmas.
secondly, i have a problem. (yea nothing new), n e way i was at church yesterday and his grace bishop david, was there. i am a psaltos right now according to the deaconship, and i have been a psaltos for 10 years. I am 14 years old, yup, 14. Well, 12 other people were ordinated some psaltos and some ougnostos. All of the ordinated psaltos to augnostos, were less than u year in the deaconship of the church. unlike me 10 years. Anba basanti ordinated me when i was 3 years old. ma and bishop david are pretty tight. Well, my dad of course, being a dad, said that i should be a aghnostos, i didnt say n e ething. Well, the other deacons agreed, but my church priest didnt. i am good at alhan, not bragging, but yea i am pretty, good, i was taught by abouna dawoud bebway, for a couple of years. then thanx to this site, i learned the rest. Well, evryone was arguing, so anba david said in the microphone, that you have to be 18 years of age. Maybe thats right but i know many people that were ordinated way before 18. Its not like it makes a huge difference what rank i am but its not really fair. Well after the mass, bishop david and me were taling for a long time, and he said that its ok, and all that. so i dont know what to do now??

Dave

P.S. Is what i am doing or thinking right or wrong? plus if any augnostos deacons could right back and let me know who ordinated them and what age and stuff. thanx a lot.

_________________
"You Shall Not Love The World Nor The Things In The World. If Anyone Loves The World, The Love Of The Father Is Not In Him. For All That Is World- The Lust Of The Flesh, The Lust Of The Eyes, And The Pride Of Life-Is Not Of The Father But Is Of The World.

elshammaa

Posts: 260

Joined: Dec 09, 2004
Location: Chicago, IL, USA

Posted: Jan 02, 2006 - 08:18 PM

we had a similar thing happen at our church. Not only from psaltos to aghnostos, but also aghnostos to sub-deacon, and from nothing into pasltos! The bishop (or priest) - I dont remember which one, decided to make age cutoffs for each rank. I do not think that is a church rule, but rather something set in place the each priest / bishop according to what he thinks is appropriate for his church. My guess as to the reason for this is because that is easier than making a formal test that each person has to pass before he gets promoted! But thats just my guess.

Anyway...I was ordained psaltos when I was like 3 years old also. I am 29 now, and I was just ordained aghnostos!!! I hear your pain man... but remember, its according to Gods will... do you really think your deacon promotion will help you in your eternal life? if it would, dont you think God would give it to you, at the appropriate time!!?? Believe, me, I have been trying to get promoted for a while! They waited untill I was bald, and had no hair to cut off before I was promoted Laughing

Rabena Ma'ak!
Keep improving!
IN Christ,
me

_________________
"What can be more blessed than to imitate on earth the chorus of the angels; to begin the opening day with prayer, honouring the Creator with hymns and songs; and when the sun is up to turn to work, always accompanied by prayer, and to season one's labours with singing? Cheerfulness and freedom from sorrow are the gifts which the soul received from the singing of hymns." --St. Basil the Great

Last edited by elshammaa on Jan 02, 2006 - 08:50 PM; edited 1 time in total

egydave

Posts: 111

Joined: Aug 30, 2005
Location: Rhode Island, USA

Posted: Jan 02, 2006 - 08:42 PM

its really not fair though a ton of other people were ordinated. and i am sure that none of them know more hymns than me. yes they r older but no one gets promoted atb18. my cousin goes to bergen, jersey city0and he was ordinated at 10. its just unfair.
dave.

guest

Posts: 58

Joined: Jan 25, 2005

Posted: Jan 02, 2006 - 11:44 PM

Dave I do understand your thinking, but we can not compare oureselves to others. We do not look at the ranks this way, rather according to our life, as an Psaltos, do you carry the life of the reader? These duties include learning hymns, and chanting them. However, when we get these thoughts of doubt and jealousy. We must not look at the deacon rank this way. Something else we must remember is that these ranks may improve our self-esteem, yet there is no need to have a desire to move on to the next rank. Learning hymns is a part of all the ranks, at epsaltos this is the time where you learn as many as you can, and having these thoughts drift you away from learning hymns, and you get mad for a reason that is unecessary. When you say, "its really not fair though a ton of other people were ordinated. an i am sure that none of them know more hymns than me" Now you are getting the thought of pride, and satan is take advantage of you since, you feel that you are greater than others. Having this mentality affects things we do, and we always have to worry about ourselves, and not about others. When we say I know more hymns than others, that does not mean you should be elevated to Oghnostos, there is a lot more than to knowing hymns, its alright to be Psaltos. You can educate yourself about the church, the rites of the church, Bible, read commentaries by several of Church Fathers such as Saint Augustine, Saint Cyril, Saint Athanasius, and the others. Looking at others and saying it is unfair because they are Oghnostos, is pride that is overcoming you. Instead, wait, if it is THE WILL OF GOD, then you will be ordained. But as Psaltos, there is no need to raise an objection, by letting yourself get mad your are losing the spirituality of the deacon.

How will being "Oghnostos"-Chanter- make you better? I am not saying it is worse, but as you write you make it seem like improving from an angel to an Archangel.

egydave

Posts: 111

Joined: Aug 30, 2005
Location: Rhode Island, USA

Posted: Jan 03, 2006 - 09:07 PM

but i think i deserve it, i know u will say all the stuff bout god knows when the right time is, but i still have the unfair feeling inside.

xodohtro

Posts: 9

Joined: Jul 15, 2005

Posted: Jan 03, 2006 - 09:41 PM

I hope we will realize what's been really going on here. It doesn't matter if we think we deserve something or not. That's not the issue.

The real issue is that because of this desire to "move up the ranks", you are judging people's decisions, people's abilities, and thinking that you are better than others. And even if you are better, the deaconship, which is meant to be a service to God, has become an object of envy and jealousy. You have not been joyful for others who have got ordained higher than you.

I am not trying to judge your heart - but this is what I gather from what you've said so far. I think these are warning signs that the devil is at work, and you should forget about the actual rank and focus on issues of pride and jealousy. Remember, whoever desires to be first, shall be last.

I highly urge you to speak with your Father of Confession about this. Fight to make sure the devil doesn't make your heart and mind his own playing ground. And most importantly, don't think that this is just an issue of ranks - that's just a mask for a deeper temptation.

Be orthodox.

MHNA

Posts: 30

Joined: Dec 20, 2005
Location: st. mary and st. anthony in queens new york

Posted: Jan 03, 2006 - 11:55 PM

i was ordained an aghnoustos by h.g bishop david when i was 13. my priests were arguing to ordain 11 of us aging from 12-17. finally he agreed to ordain us if we passed a test ( all i had to read was arievmevi ethoab entak. a couple of us failed, most didnt even know parts of tasbeha, but he still ordained all of us. even though i was ordained i disagreed with bishop david about him ordaining us at 12, 13, or 14 years old.

ps. its not that diffrent from absaltos you still have the same job in the church(to serve god)[/code]

asinner

Posts: 279

Joined: Sep 14, 2004
Location: mrs.sauga

Posted: Jan 04, 2006 - 12:31 AM

Irini nem ehmot
befor i was ordaind an augnostos i was so willing to be one and i had my mind set to it but once i was ordainde i felt no difference what so ever. neways the age thing was no tradition it is just that you have to show that you can serve. Oringinaly epsaltos was for a person of approx 12 of age but look at people like egdave for example... 3 years old and ordained.
(take no offence to that dave) but neways i know how you feel. we r all saints in Gods eyes wesather you are a layman or a pope.

alright
just my 3 cents(sorry just trying to get rid of a lil' change.)

_________________
-He that sins

A member of the HCOC (The Heritage of the Coptic Orthodox Choir)
HCOC-SING IT! LIVE IT! LOVE IT

OH YE DRY BONES, HERE THE WORD OF THE LORD! (Ezekiel 37:4)

tonyhabibi

Posts: 1223

Joined: Apr 10, 2004
Location: IN THE back of your mind .navagating through your heart , resting in your soul .

Posted: Jan 04, 2006 - 01:41 AM

i was ordained a regular deacon at age 4 .... i still hAVe yet to be promoted ... im 19 yaers old ...
it doesnt bother me one bit because .. im still serving god no matter what .. i alter serve and chant outside the alter .
if u think about it .. u just could offically do more in the liturgy when u get promoted ... however if not promoted u still serve the lord , wheter by your toungue or spirit ..

pray 4 me .

tony .

Mina..Faheim

Posts: 15

Joined: Aug 18, 2004
Location: Mrs. Sauga

Posted: Jan 04, 2006 - 01:49 AM

peace and grace

when i got ordained aghnostos, it was not a sign of greatness and superiority over ANYONE else. Sometimes i think of it that way, but really it makes no difference. There are many great people who weren't even psaltos like St. Rueiss. Also many deacons are ordained psaltos only, and they are much more spiritual and know MUCH more hymns than me.

Also, the ranks in the church now don't make much of a difference except for the DEACON and the ARCHDEACON.

One head deacon in my church is only psaltos...so...yeah.

Just my little comment.

Mina

Mina..Faheim

Posts: 15

Joined: Aug 18, 2004
Location: Mrs. Sauga

Posted: Jan 04, 2006 - 02:03 AM

sorry for the double post.

I was ordained when i was 10 years old. I was ordained an psaltos. when i was 4, and there was no dispute. Abouna told anba elia that he knew that i was good enough to be an aghnostos.

The thing is, I am a little more advanced than most ppl my age in church(in hymns, coptic, etc..)

so...it is just a matter of the bishop that ordains you. Some bishops have different rules than other bishops.

Mina

egydave

Posts: 111

Joined: Aug 30, 2005
Location: Rhode Island, USA

Posted: Jan 04, 2006 - 02:52 AM

what church do u go to MHNA. My priest told me i had to know omonogenees. yeah right. i know bishop david would of ordained me if it wasn't for my priest, to say no. i mean its obviously all up to him, whether i get ordained or not. But what i mean to say is that, Why is god doing this to me only? i don't even care n e more. and its not a fact that the devil is playing with my head forget the devil right now. But other people were ordained no one knew omonogenees, but yet they got ordained while i didn't. thats wats confusing me. And as far as my experience with bishop david i know that he will never ordain n e one who askes for it. i am sure of this. u can't ask to be ordained it has to come by itself. But i still don't understand, y out of evryone else, i wasnt ordained!!

Mark2mnm

Posts: 78

Joined: May 13, 2003
Location: St. Mark's COC (Westside) Jersey City, NJ

Posted: Jan 04, 2006 - 03:16 AM

hey guys,

i've been reading this thread for awhile and i felt a need recently to reply to your comments. Ithink that we are loosing the big picture and getting ourselves invloved in a discussion that will eventually lead down the wrong path. First of all it is God's plan for you on when and why should get ordained or upped rank. We should judge on why things happen but take it for what it is. Second is the comments that are flying around about H.G. Bishop David's decision. We have to understand that H.G. is much more wise than any of us and understands why or why not to do certain things. This might be different from what we want but is never a wrong decision since our bishops are enlightened by the Holy Spirit. I hope that EgyDave and everyone else can understand this and know that decisions of higher ranks of the church are always for our own benefit. Are duties are still the same as deacons of any rank unless otherwise told. I hope God can give us the grace to understand this and continue in our service.

tonyhabibi

Posts: 1223

Joined: Apr 10, 2004
Location: IN THE back of your mind .navagating through your heart , resting in your soul .

Posted: Jan 04, 2006 - 03:36 AM

i know the following is a hurtful remark ... however me being the person that i am .. i just have to say this ...

egydave .. when u said

"
But what i mean to say is that, Why is god doing this to me only."...

...But i still don't understand, y out of evryone else, i wasnt ordained!!...

.but i think i deserve it, i know u will say all the stuff bout god knows when the right time is, but i still have the unfair feeling inside.""

my response ..

bro ... grow up .. and open your eyes man .. i know emotions get the best of us sometimes .. but man ... ur overreacting .. to me its just the devil trying to get u hateful toward the church / your priest ...cant u see it ?

forget about it .. when u think of how blessed u are to even be attending church without the threat of persecution .. you will realize the subject of being promoted to a higher rank is quite frankly ... IRRELEVANT .

sorry if this was hurtful .. but someone had to say it . or did it had to be said ?

toeknee .

ABasanti

Posts: 191

Joined: Feb 23, 2004

Posted: Jan 04, 2006 - 04:18 AM

Okay i have been reading ur posts and i dont want this to shock anyoen but it is up too the bishop too decide on what he was told... our church is not following tradition i have been to TONS of churches and noone is followuing traditions and even my church ordain people that jus come from nowhere and there have been some incidetnbs where i have seen some deacons serve with there tunics and not have been ordained yet... the ranks of deacons are from the old tradiion that is not yet followed very rarely i dont no about the rest of the world but north america i see it a lot in most churches.. i was ordained right awauy a oghnostos by The Late Metropolitan Anba Daniel, of Sudan ... my chruch was following tradition back than since the popualtion wasnt so big and i had the rite by him since he was also related to me and he new how my family was taught in sudan about how to serve and how to act the correct way in church so he new it would be past to me that is jus one small point .. i was ordained in my church in canada but i no that until this day... im not sure aboiut egypt but in sudan u must go threw a serious of tests to become a deacon HARD TESTS!!! none of this nonsenses about kids jumping in the altar and playking with fire and so on... so the people who are sayikng i want to be this and this and this it is not a thing up to u.. at least any rank is greatful there is no difference bewteen the ranks unless u are a deacon u dont feel any different the only real differnece according to tradition is that one can sing and one can read but this is somethiun called jealousy of what you guys are saying.... yes u are supose to serve for a while and than get oordained hire rank but around here we dont do that... once u are ordained than thas it... if ur church does follow tradition and has the deacons split up and sitting together according to rank than this is different ... u can still sing and learn hymns and so on the only difference of being jealous or mad about going hire is if you want to get to deacon which the chances arent that hight for that happening so personally i would suggest you jus stay psaltos or oghnostos it doenst matter....

_________________
+ Andrew Basanti +
HCOC Member & Sales Representative

+ To Protect and Preserve +
For the Lord does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart. (1 Samuel 16:7)

Mechaiel

Posts: 254

Joined: Feb 03, 2003
Location: Perth, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Posted: Jan 04, 2006 - 11:41 AM

EgyDave,

I was ordained Psaltos (chanter) at the age of 11 by Bishop Mosa. I was promoted to Anaghnostos (reader) at the age of 14 by Metropolitan Bakhomios. At the age of 21, and due to a lack of knowledgeable deacons I became the leading chanter. The priest of my church wanted our Bishop to ordain me (and one other deacon) sub-deacons but HG Bishop Suriel (Bishop of Melbourne) refused until he had a chance to speak to us. I never had the chance to speak to His Grace and was never promoted to sub-deacon. I accept His Grace's decision as a wise decision. If I was a bishop, I would have done the same thing.

Now Dave, I am sure you have a sound knowledge of the church hymns. I want you to consider the following:

1) When I was ordained a Reader, my reading skills were never tested. In fact, I felt really embarassed when I made a mistake while reading one of the readings or gospel at church. I later started regretting agreeing to being promoted to a reader at that time because my reading should be better. I am now 26 year old. Having a university degree, I consider myself a good reader. In hindsight, I think I should not have been ordained a reader until I had at least finished high school. The title/rank of reader means that you have to read well, UNDERSTAND what you are reading, and communicate it effectively to the congregation. In my opinion, 14 years of age is too young for that.

2) Do you think you deserved being ordained a chanter at the age of 3? Did you know any hymns back then? I am sure many kids that age who have been refused ordination at such a young age are jealous that you were
ordained at that age.
(Don't get upset, this is not a personal attack against you).

3) If you were promoted to Reader by Bishop David, would your service as a deacon change?

4) You are a chanter (Psaltos). If you feel you know many hymns (alhan), that means you are a good chanter, not necessarily a good reader.

5) When the time is right, and his Grace ordains you a Reader, I am sure you will feel that you have definately earned it.

Sorry for the long reply.

asinner

Posts: 279

Joined: Sep 14, 2004
Location: mrs.sauga

Posted: Jan 04, 2006 - 03:39 PM

(irini nem ehmot)

mina..fahiem) the thing is, I am a little more advanced than most ppl my age in church(in hymns, coptic, etc..)(quote)

this is not really neessary because in a way you are putting down other people in your church and this contraddicts you previous post ie.

(mina..fahiem)it was not a sign of greatness and superiority over ANYONE else(quote)

i understand you are trying to help egydave but sincei am fro your church i feel pu down. so please try to keep your life story on the downlow.

_________________
-He that sins

A member of the HCOC (The Heritage of the Coptic Orthodox Choir)
HCOC-SING IT! LIVE IT! LOVE IT

OH YE DRY BONES, HERE THE WORD OF THE LORD! (Ezekiel 37:4)

xodohtro

Posts: 9

Joined: Jul 15, 2005

Posted: Jan 04, 2006 - 05:21 PM

egydave wrote:

..and its not a fact that the devil is playing with my head forget the devil right now...

Again, I'm not trying to judge anyone, but this sentence of yours sets off alarms. The devil never wants us to pay attention to him or what he's doing. He always wants us to focus on falling. He wants us to ignore the fact that he's involved, because once we realize that, he knows we'll turn away. But if he can manipulate your thoughts and feelings while remaining under the radar, he's won his battle.

Listen to what people are saying on this forum Egydave, and be wise. Many people have said this deacon ordination issue is not a big deal. But if you continue to challenge the bishop's decision, the priest's decision, or judge the abilities of others with respect to yours, you are falling into pride, and that IS a big deal.

I say this to you as a brother because I have fallen into pride many times, and this situation deeply reminds me of those times. I speak gravely. Pride that goes unchecked will sprout out later and really hurt you.

Again, please seek the counsel of your spiritual father just to make sure it's not from the devil. If it's not, you've lost nothing and even gained an absolution and favour with God that you tried your best. If it is, then you will have cut the devil off with a mighty blow. Remember, when you approach God through a sacrament, He will not leave you. But if you are hurt later on, don't say that God has forsaken you or didn't provide you with the means to know His will.

Be orthodox.

elshammaa

Posts: 260

Joined: Dec 09, 2004
Location: Chicago, IL, USA

Posted: Jan 04, 2006 - 06:15 PM

So...the nerd I am... I have to set this picture...
Have any of you ppl seen "the search for Bibby Fisher" The chess movie, like 8 years ago or something?

There is one seen where the boy ask for his grandmaster certificate, and the teacher say not untill you pass this test, the boy says show it to me, the teacher says no.. the boy says he wont move till he gets his certificate, because thats all that matters...hte teacher gets mad, and throws 50 certifictaes at the kid, and tells him its just a piece of paper, it doesnt matter at all... the important thing is to improve your game... the paper doesnt matter to anyone!! The kid was 9 years old!

Sorry, but this discussion really makes me think of that scene!!!

On the other hand...I know it is really easy to get upset... (I am realizing how much of a hypocrite I am, as it seems like I say "its not fair" almost every day at work, just in a different context)...tough one!!

God help us all to realize, that God put these people in their position of authority for a reason, and God will guilde them to make the right decisions for Gods greatest good!

In Christ,
me

ChristIsMySavior

Posts: 10

Joined: Dec 30, 2006
Location: St. Mary and St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church of Indianapolis, IN

Posted: Dec 30, 2006 - 04:56 AM

egydave wrote:

Ok this got WAY of the target as i keept reading but here Bishop David is very strict Ok. Now other bishops like bisshop tadros for example is not as strict he ordains ougnostos at age 12+ so every bishop is different in their own rules. Which to me makes no sense whatsoever because the rules should not change from bishop to bishop but some bishops say 15 some say 13 and some say 18. If it helps I have been ordained psaltos twice turen down once by HG bishop David and once Bishop Tadros forgot his book so relax

Misteka

Posts: 194

Joined: Oct 05, 2005
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Posted: Dec 30, 2006 - 01:02 PM

This discussion is absolutely useless. All this empty spiritualizing and hurtful judgements hidden by "caring brothers of the Orthodox Church".

What a load of rubbish.

Dave, it's not fair at all. Bishop David has no excuse. According to what you're saying, he's messed up big time. And the only thing he did in the end was to cover his own hide. That's about it.

Having dealt with priests and bishops, this is not new. This is the oldest trick in the shoddy bishop book.

Unfortunately, Dave, whether we like it or not, the Coptic Church is rife with nepotism (relatives and friends helping out other friends and relatives), culturalism, and corruption. Not always money, although there is, but mostly social corruption. Everything is about which bishop you know, what priest you know, blah blah blah.

I feel for you Dave. It's totally unjustified behaviour and frustrating, especially when you work so very hard to learn and gain experience, and the church elders willfully play the political and social game in ordaining servants in the church.

Misteka.

Misteka

Posts: 194

Joined: Oct 05, 2005
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Posted: Dec 30, 2006 - 01:07 PM

Another point because I'm sick of hearing and reading it everywhere on Orthodox websites.

What's this Devil business? Have we forgotten that THE DEVIL IS BEATEN SINCE THE CROSS? Does not ANYONE pay ANY attention to ANYTHING said in church?

The Devil has no power over us. He's not some lurking pedophile walking around us waiting to take advantage of us.

Not all evil and bad things in this world is from the Devil. Coptic Christians are starting to sound like the mother from "The Waterboy" - "DONT TALK TO GIRLS CUZ GIRLS IS FROM THE DEVIL!"

Let's think and read and stop thinking with our butts. People read the Paradise of the Fathers or hear stories about it, and don't know any context or even go out and find some bloody context. This is ridiculous. Devil this, Devil that. You're giving him so much importance when in fact he's nothing.

Misteka.

PaulS
Ask me for help!
Posts: 2441

Joined: Sep 09, 2002
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony Coptic Orthodox Church in Norco, CA

Posted: Dec 30, 2006 - 06:45 PM

Hello,

Irrespective of the ranks we hold in life and in the church, our goal is heaven.

My own opinion is that you take this purported insult and hold on to it as a blessing.

I am also uncomfortable with anyone saying they are entitled to the priesthood, a deaconship rank, a Sunday School position, or anything of the sort. The whole concept appears inconsistent with our faith to me.

GBU,
ps

salamah

Posts: 132

Joined: Mar 29, 2004

Posted: Dec 30, 2006 - 07:26 PM

From Coptic Synexarium
Baounah 24
The Martyrdom of the Great Saint Anba Moses the Black

When he came before the Patriarch to be ordained, the patriarch wanted to test him by asking the elders, 'Who brought this black here? Cast him out.' He obeyed, and left saying to himself, 'It is good what they have done to you, O black colored one.' The Patriarch, however, called him back and ordained him a priest, and said to him, 'Moses, all of you now has become white.

Please God gave us the humble spirit like the one you gave to St. Moses, to know that we are not worthy to serve you. Amen

egydave

Posts: 111

Joined: Aug 30, 2005
Location: Rhode Island, USA

Posted: Dec 30, 2006 - 11:40 PM

hey guys,

Well this was about almost exactly a year ago, and i dont think this way at all anymore. i look back to last year and noticed i have changed A LOT. i dont even care what rank i am its all praising god. some people are the highest rank and don't have the spirituality and others could be a lower rank and pray from their heart. but anyway i was being a complete child, i dont even care about this anymore. the difference between the two ranks is that the psaltos doesn't have previleges such as reading any epistles or gospels, and touching the "awanee", like drying them after the divine liturgy. i already do all that stuff anyway so it doesn't matter really. last year i wanted to do it for the pride and be happy because i had a good rank, thats not what matters at all, its all about your relationship with god. its funny how i am a complete new person over ONE year.

DAVE

Display posts from previous:

Jump to: