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mixahl
Posts: 19
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
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Apr 15, 2006 - 08:14 PM |
 
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I wanted share with you this site which compiles a lot of the sayings of the fathers along with sermons.
http://stmarkla.org |
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mixahl
Posts: 19
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
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Apr 17, 2006 - 12:28 AM |
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sorry for the mispost...but the site for the life and teachings of the holy fathers has been moved to theholyfathers.org. it is currently down but will be up shortly. With your prayers, postings for everyday of the holy pascha week will be available from one of the many contemplations by the holy church fathers. please pray for me |
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geomekhaiel
Posts: 1726
Joined: Aug 05, 2003
Location: Saint George COC
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Apr 23, 2006 - 12:47 AM |
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Thine links don't work (both of them) |
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pavly
Posts: 331
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Location: St-Mark Montreal, Canada
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Apr 23, 2006 - 04:23 AM |
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The latter worked for me this morning and actually still does.
Happy Feast of the Resurrection to all!
Pavly |
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mixahl
Posts: 19
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
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Apr 23, 2006 - 03:41 PM |
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Iqbal
Posts: 127
Joined: Nov 14, 2004
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May 08, 2006 - 12:15 AM |
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mixahl,
I think the general idea behind your website is intriguing and I believe that you are doing a great service through it, however I must stringly contend with your implicit obliteration of the canonical distinction between the Orthodox Church and the Chalcedonian Orthodox Church. Their Saints, are not our Saints, and should thus not be addressed or regarded as such. These figures include: Seraphim of Sarov, John of Damascus, Theophan the Recluse, John Climacus, Romanus the Melodist, and Peter of Damascus.
There are plenty of brilliant post-schism Orthodox Saints that you could engage with, so why the consistent appeal to post-schism schismatics vs. the zero appeal to post-schism Orthodox Saints? I'm sure some wisdom can be found in many of the things that they say - insofar as they conform with the teachings and spirituality of our Church, but in the end they are not authorities, and many of them by virtue of being in schism strayed into heteredox territory, or even (as is the case with John of Damascus) explicitly insulted and attacked the Orthodox Church and Her Saints. One of the Great Orthodox Saints that John of Damascus greatly insulted was St Severos of Antioch. I'm pretty dishearted at this consistent appeal to Saint Severos' enemy vs. the zero appeal to Saint Severos.
Here is what I suggest: 1) repeal the title Saint from those figures who are certainly not Saints of the canonical Orthodox Church, b) tone down on your appeal to such figures, c) engage more with post-schism Orthodox Saints: start with St Severos for example; some of his letters have been translated and are available online here:
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/index ... of_Antioch |
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Publican
Posts: 108
Joined: Nov 18, 2005
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May 08, 2006 - 01:04 AM |
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mixahl,
I love your site; it is a great blessing for all who wish to benefit from it. Iqbal, those Saints whom you disparaged are holy men of God, who in my humble opinion transcend political barriers.
Pray for me,
Michael |
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Iqbal
Posts: 127
Joined: Nov 14, 2004
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May 08, 2006 - 01:36 AM |
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Publican,
I did not disparage any of the above mentioned figures, but rather expressed the fact that by virtue of those figures existing outside of the Canonical boundaries of The Church, they cannot in all good consciousness be considered, and hence addressed, as Saints. This is basic Orthodox ecclesiology. If you have a problem with this, then your problem is with the Church and her Tradition, not me; let's not make this personal. The Chalcedonian Church herself would never regard post-Chalcedon Orthodox Saints as Saints, nor should we expect them to - Orthodox ecclesiological principles shared by both Churches simply dictate that this is how we are to regard those in schism/heresy.
Furthermore, what is your response to the fact that one of these men whom you're trying to defend as a Saint, in fact slandered one the greatest Church Fathers that Orthodoxy has ever produced (i.e. Saint Severos of Antioch)? Do you think it is uncalled for on my behalf to expect greater appeal to a great Orthodox Saint, and less appeal to that very Saint's enemy, from mixahl?
The issues in question are not political my friend; they're ecclesiological and historical. |
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mixahl
Posts: 19
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
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May 08, 2006 - 02:25 AM |
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Iqbal,
I sincerely thank you for your input. Your comments have been put into practice. Just remember that I am a poor sinner trying to learn and benefit of our holy fathers with not much experience in patristics as my fellow brothers. Please continue to provide comments as it will help to provide correct canonical teachings in compliance with our coptic church.
However, I try not to exclude all the sayings of these fathers because some of their teachings are still valid for our spiritual life. I try not to touch too much on dogmatics as I am not an expert on the subject. please pray for me and continue to offer comments.
mixahl |
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Iqbal
Posts: 127
Joined: Nov 14, 2004
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May 08, 2006 - 03:05 AM |
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mixahl,
I commend you for redacting your website accordingly; you have done the proper thing.
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| However, I try not to exclude all the sayings of these fathers because some of their teachings are still valid for our spiritual life. |
Indeed, which is why I did not outright suggest that you exclude any and every contribution made by prominent Christians outside of the canonical boundaries of the Orthodox Church; I am not close-minded to the fact that many theologians of the Chalcedonian Orthodox Church, and even those of the Latin Chalcedonian and Protestant Churches (e.g. C.S. Lewis), have inspiring things to say on subjects and issues with respect to which they are capable of promoting Orthodox thoughts. I do not limit the operation or power of the Holy Spirit to the canonical boundaries of The Church; I simply limit the revealed implications of the very existence of such boundaries as dictated by the Tradition of the Church.
However, I would personally love to see a more emphasised insight into certain issues and subjects by post-Chalcedonian Orthodox fathers and Saints – such insight would truly enhance the value and uniqueness of your already fantastic website by virtue of the fact that this is an area that most of us within the Church are unfamiliar with, so not only would you be making such valuable works accessible to those outside of the Church, but also those within the Church, many of whom seem to think that the age of the Fathers ceased at the point of the fifth century schism.
I have your website bookmarked in my Favorites folder, and am looking forward to continued engagement with it. God bless you for your service. |
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mixahl
Posts: 19
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
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May 08, 2006 - 03:17 AM |
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It would be great if I can get specific topics that people would like to read about (post chalcedonian). Id love to research as I know Im probably going to be interested in the same topics as everyone else.
Thanks for your support Iqbal.
pray for me
mixahl |
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Iqbal
Posts: 127
Joined: Nov 14, 2004
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May 08, 2006 - 03:51 AM |
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Mixahl,
Here’s a very nice example for you. The following is the work of a Coptic Father (and Hermit) of the tenth century whose name was Abba Sophronius; in it He proves that God is a Trinity from the premise that God is love:
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(Translated from Coptic by George Bebawi, Ph.D., As appeared in Coptic Church Review; Vol.25, number 4, Winter 2004
God is love because He is triune; or is it because He is triune that He is love? Love and Trinity are the same. In the Godhead there is the spring of love, the Father; the revelation of love, the Son; the giving and the communion of love, the Holy Spirit.
The Father loves His Son and the Son is His beloved. The Son sends the Spirit, who is the Spirit of the Father, and that is why the Son said “All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you." John 16:14
The Holy Spirit is the Sprit of communion; He proceeds from the Father and rests in the Son and opens the fountain of love for us.
The Father is the beloved of the Son and the beloved of the Holy Spirit. For each of the Three is lover and beloved:
When The Son takes His office as Mediator, the Son is the beloved of the Father. When The Son offers His life for the world, the Father is the beloved of the Son. When The Holy Spirit proceeds for the Incarnation of the Son, the Son is the beloved of the Holy Spirit. When The Son sends the Holy Spirit of the Father, the Holy Spirit becomes the beloved of the Son.
The movement of love of the Holy Thiad is the perichoresis, where Each exchanges His movement with the other. When we pray in the beloved Lord Jesus Christ, we receive from Him the Holy Spirit because the Son is the Head of the new creation. But we also receive the Son our Lord from the Holy Spirit in order to rest in the Father.
The movement of the humility of God, the Trinity, is like that; the Father comes to us in His Son, and the Son comes to us in the Holy Spirit. When we receive the Son from the Holy Spirit, we ascend to the Father to rest in Him.
Let us embark on this journey by taking our beginning with the Son who eternally took His beginning from the Father - the true Beginning (arche) of the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Let us surrender to the Love of God the Father who is revealed in His Son and is communicated to us in the Son through the Holy Spirit.
We surrender to the Son who emptied Himself and took our form. We accept to be crucified with Him in the mystery of baptism, that by His humility we may have the first taste of divine love - the love that does not take anything from us but gives everything first to receive us. The humble love of the Divine who empties Himself, even of His holiness, to become a slave in order to lift up the slave to the divine love; for God loves for no reason, no necessity, because love is His very nature.
Let us explore with holiness the divine love and take the holy word of God as our beginning, and His love as our goal. Let us have no reason for loving God as the Trinity has no reason for being the Communion of love of the Three, who love because love is their nature.
Let us look at the cross to learn sacrificial love, the love of the Trinity who offered the Son for sinners; who was declared to be Son of God with power according to the spirit of holiness by resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, (Romans 1:4)
When we die we can love even to the point of physical death for then, and only then, we can complete our baptism and receive divine love, and then love like the Trinity because our love comes from Him.
The Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father and rests in the Son takes us to the Bosom of the Father. The holy apostle told us that since we are the children of the Father, the Father sends the Spirit of His Son (the Spirit who rests in the Son from Eternity or from the beginning, and because of His Incarnation rests on Him) to be for us our Unction, to anoint us in Him and with Him because He is the second Adam and the head of the new creation which receives the Holy Spirit for eternal life.
Let us pray in Jesus our true Intercessor to be anointed by the Holy Spirit in Him and by Him who is our high-priest to rest in the Bosom of the Father.
True prayer in the Holy Spirit is when we cry Abba Father. This short cry includes the mystery of our salvation. We look at the Spring of Love, God the Father, the Revelation of Love, God the Son, and the Communion of Love, God the Holy Spirit. When we are adopted we know that they are not three gods but one God in Three. We discern the Three and we discern the moment of divine love because divine love is not static but dynamic.
In His mercy the Father moves always to the Beloved and the Beloved moves always to the Holy Spirit. Let us not imagine distance or time but just as our blood moves by the pulse of our heart and by our breathing so in like manner the Three move towards each other. This movement is one of distinction and differences. The three are not just names in the Godhead but Three Hypostases in one Ousia. Three Beloved in the one communion of Love; three lovers in the one undivided love. The Father is the Spring from whom comes the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Son is the Revelation who reveals the Father and gives the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Gift of communion who proceeds from the Father and rests in the Son and brings the whole creation to this communion.
Let us recapitulate:
God is love; that is why God is Trinity. Love is communion and communion is between more than one Self love is the foundation of love. Self giving is the very communion between two, but shared love of two with a third transcends the closed relationship of the two. When two who love each other as equals share their love with a third equal, they move from the exclusive dyadic love to the communal triadic love. Triadic love is perfect for these reasons:
1. It is communal because more than two is a community.
2. It does not stop at exclusive dyadic love because a third who shares the love of the two, gives back the same love of the two.
3. It is the circle of infinite movement for two do not make a circle, but three close the circle as each stands in the one third of the circle and makes it complete.
If we apply this to the Holy Trinity we can see that the movement of love is a movement of perichoresis; both mean penetration and dance.
Concluding in Grace:
Now generation reaches its climax, and procession its goal to perfect the plan of our salvation. The One who is always with the Father and in the Father has created in Himself the new humanity. It was new from the very moment of his conception but it had not met our death. It met death in the flesh by the power of the Anointing which Jesus received for us at His baptism. At His conception in the womb of Mary, Jesus received from the Holy Spirit the foundation of the new creation. This new creation has its beginning in the Holy Spirit and in communion with the Father because the Father is its Arche (source); the Son is its Mediator and the Holy Spirit is its life. This happened secretly while the world was asleep. |
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Publican
Posts: 108
Joined: Nov 18, 2005
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May 08, 2006 - 06:28 AM |
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Iqbal,
Forgive me father, I did not intend to offend you. My only concern is that on the pretext of Canonical boundaries we deprive ourselves of immense spiritual benefit. Forgive me for my ignorance, I will always be obedient to my Mother the Church. However let us not forget that the Church was not built for man, nor was it built on man's principles "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God." If Holy men such as St. John Climacus and St. Theophan the Recluse provide us wisdom and we refuse it, my father Iqbal, who has lost? I leave you with a lesson from a "post-Chalcedonian Orthodox Saint" please read:
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Once the Pope sent for the bishop (St. Abraam) to attend a council held to judge a priest, who was charged with allowing a bishop under the ban of the church, to enter the church where he gave him food to eat and a place to sleep in. The Pope announced that the priest must be excommunicated, then he gave the written judgment to Kellini Fahmy to sign and pass to his neighbor. The saint was sitting next to this man when he took the document, read it and said, "I cannot know why this priest should be excommunicated. Did not Jesus Christ command us to be considerate to the poor and strangers?!" Then he declared that he would not sign the judgment. Kellini Pasha said that the Pope had already decided, and the verdict was according to the church law. The bishop replied answering the Pasha's words, "Why was I called to this council if I am not allowed to express my opinion?!" Then he left the council room and went downstairs. The Pope sent one of the members to him, but he said, "Blessed be the Name of God, I will not go up the stairs of this house again all my life, unless that judgment is brought to me over here and destroyed immediately." The Pope yielded to him and the priest was forgiven. |
Keep me in your prayers,
Publican |
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Iqbal
Posts: 127
Joined: Nov 14, 2004
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May 08, 2006 - 06:51 AM |
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| Forgive me father, I did not intend to offend you. |
You have addressed me in such manner on more than one occasion; since I have given no indication whatsoever that I am a priest, I can only presume that you are trying to be sarcastic. Is that really necessary?
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| Forgive me for my ignorance, I will always be obedient to my Mother the Church. However let us not forget that the Church was not built for man, nor was it built on man's principles |
Please do not pay lip service to the authority of the Church if you are then going to imply in the very next sentence that her principles are man-made, and if you are then going to disobey her in the sentence following that, by addressing men in schism as “Saints”.
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| wisdom and we refuse it |
Try reading my responses to mixahl before you jump to conclusions. I have not made one statement to the effect that we should outright disregard and ignore anything and everything anyone outside of the canonical boundaries of the Church states. I can find godly wisdom uttered not only by Chalcedonians (e.g. Maximus of Constantinople), but also by Latins (e.g. Aquinas), Protestants (e.g. C.S. Lewis), and even pagan philosophers (e.g. Plotinus); but none of these men are Saints. Period.
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| I leave you with a lesson from a "post-Chalcedonian Orthodox Saint" please read |
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the “lesson” of this story has no relevance to anything I have said. As far as I know, the canons of the Church do not forbid one from being charitable to those outside the canonical bounds of the Church, which is all that this priest seemed to be doing. In this case therefore, the council in question was attempting to falsely ex-communicate the priest upon an un-canonical basis (kind of like what the Chalcedonians did to the great St. Dioscoros).
There is nothing un-canonical however, about my assertion that we cannot recognise those outside of the canonical bounds of the Church as Saints. Saints are those whom the Church decides to canonise, and the Church only canonises those within her boundaries. Period. |
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Publican
Posts: 108
Joined: Nov 18, 2005
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May 08, 2006 - 07:00 AM |
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Iqbal,
I was in no way being sarcastic, and I believe you have misunderstood my post. Forgive me, again this was not my intention. Please do not be upset at me. Keep me in your prayers.
Michael |
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Iqbal
Posts: 127
Joined: Nov 14, 2004
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May 08, 2006 - 07:11 AM |
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I am not upset at you, I am just a little baffled as to why you would address me like that if not to be sarcastic. In any event, I will take your word for it. Sorry if I seemed a little harsh. |
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