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garywbush

Posts: 53

Joined: Aug 30, 2006

Posted: Oct 20, 2006 - 10:36 PM

Assalam Alaykum everyone.

At this thread, tonyhabibi started, there is a good moral lesson learnt.

His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI should be lauded for speaking the truth when he quoted a 14th century Byzantine Emperor who called Muhammad's teachings evil and inhumane. The truth, IMO, is painful and certainly hurts. Jesus our Lord spoke the painful truth and he hurt the feelings/emotions of the Pharisees who correspond to the Islamists of today.

tonyhabibi wrote:

Muslim scholars and religious leaders in Kuwait, Turkey and Pakistan have criticised Pope Benedict XVI for his remarks about Islam and urged him to play a positive role in bringing Islam and Christianity closer.

What do these Islamic scholars mean when they say they want the Pope to bring Muslims and Christians "closer"? Is that that they want us to become dhimmis or even worse force us to recite the Shahada and embrace Islam.

tonyhabibi wrote:

Ali Bardakoglu, head of the state-run religious affairs directorate in Turkey, said on Thursday that Pope Benedict XVI was "full of enmity and grudge" against Islam. He opposed the pontiff's planned visit to Turkey in November.

Ali Bardakoglu is a hypocrite who conviniently forgets Turkey even today treats its Christian minority like dhimmis. This is 82 years since the colapse of the Ottoman Islamic Caliphate in 1924 and balkanising of Muslims into 57 sects. Ali is the last person to criticise the Pope or oppose his visit to Turkey. As the land of "Turkey" is really Greece, and so His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI has the right to visit Greece and raise the Greek flag over Constantinople, the eternal capital of the Greeks.

Sure this will inflame Muslim public opinion but who cares? We should enrage Muslims in the way Jesus our Lord enraged the Pharisees.

tonyhabibi wrote:

Bardakoglu also demanded that the pope immediately retract and issue an apology for his remarks about Islam and his criticism of the concept of Holy War.

I'm quite happy that His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI never retracted his statement but merely said "very sorry" for the trouble Muslims have caused in reaction to that truthful statement. You should visit Catholic Answers Forum to learn more that many Conservative Catholics support their Pope, especially Robert Spencer, co-founder of Jihad Watch.

I'm a Zionist Arab, who is an associate member of Arabs for Zionism. I support multi-culturalism, democracy and secularism in the Arab world, including right to open a church in Saudi Arabia, yes in the city of Makkah.

I pray that God allows a greater Israel from the Nile in Egypt to the Euphrates in Iraq. That's Pan-Zionism.

Egypt, Israel and Assyria shall be one on the last day so says the Bible. We shall all speak Coptic, Hebrew, and Aramaic.

Aramaic is one of the four official languages of Iraq with the overthrow of the anti-Zionist regime of Saddam Hussein.

Pray for me, a sinner.

tonyhabibi

Posts: 1221

Joined: Apr 09, 2004
Location: IN THE back of your mind .navagating through your heart , resting in your soul .

Posted: Oct 21, 2006 - 08:10 PM

ummm , all the quotes u took from me was just from an article i posted . not my actual words or ideas .
please be clearer next time . anyways , i am against islam . and i have no respect whatsoever for islam . i feel we should not respect islam . becuase if one looks into the religion of sex , hate , and plagerism , ... they will not find anything to respect .

YOU ARE RIGHT . GOD BLESS POPE BENIDICT FOR MANY PEACEFUL YEARS TO COME .

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Ann

Posts: 14

Joined: Oct 05, 2006

Posted: Oct 22, 2006 - 10:49 AM

Thanks to you both for supporting Pope Benedict XVI. I'm praying he survives his trip to Turkey, and that he continues to speak the truth in his most gentle way. But what do you think might happen if he is martyred by a Muslim? Do you think it will awaken the world to the evils of this Christian heresy (for that is, truly, what Islam is - an extension of the Christian heresy of Arianism)?

--Ann

mikokiko

Posts: 1021

Joined: Feb 11, 2003

Posted: Oct 22, 2006 - 10:47 PM

ummmm, well, last time I checked it was a completely different religion...I don't know about your sources though.

garywbush

Posts: 53

Joined: Aug 30, 2006

Posted: Dec 09, 2006 - 08:40 PM

mikokiko wrote:

ummmm, well, last time I checked it was a completely different religion...I don't know about your sources though.

Have you heard of St John of Damascus, who is a great father of the Catholic Church? This saint was martyred by a Muslim Caliph and it was he who wrote the first Christian apologetics on Islam. He called Islam a heresy and tells us that Muslims pray to an idol known as the Black Stone located at the Kaabah in Makkah.

Saudi Arabia is the greatest persecutor of Christians. Last I heard, there were some 96 Arab Christians were sentenced to die for practising Christian faith.

Why do Copts not help our Arab Christian brethren who suffer great persecutions in Saudi Arabia? Is it because we hate Arabs? Please let us stop being racist! Lobby your U.S. congressmen or EU member of parliament and demand that they request Saudi Arabia stop persecuting Arab Christians.

All Copts should stop their petty racism and get involved in human rights! Start by boycotting Saudi oil and this can help reduce global Islamic terrorism.

PaulS
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Joined: Sep 09, 2002
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony Coptic Orthodox Church in Norco, CA

Posted: Dec 10, 2006 - 10:45 AM

Gary,

From the Coptic perspective, I am not sure what measures, if any, the church can take to help Christians in Saudi Arabia. Copts have systemic persecution in Egypt as it is, and that doesn't seem to have an end in sight.

The Middle East is an interesting place right now. After the United States invaded Iraq, the Muslim world became polarized, with Saudi Arabia supporting the old Sunni ruling class minority and Iran supporting the new Shi'ite ruling class majority. At the same time, the United States wants to contain Iran, which is on the brink of social collapse and seems desperate to change its fortunes militarily. In the battle of these competing interests, doing the morally right thing is oftentimes lost. More importantly, peaceful Christians in that area find themselves in a lose-lose situation.

In the end, the best thing Copts and Christians can do is offer prayers and sacrifices of praise. We should try to live correctly ourselves, for in this world, one never knows in which instant s/he might face judgment. In addition, our prayers on behalf of others will not be ignored. Although God doesn't give us everything that we, according to our limited human minds, desire, He never forgets us and ultimately does His will for us.

It is a matter of faith for us, really.

GBU,
ps

MaryRezk

Posts: 10

Joined: Dec 11, 2006

Posted: Dec 27, 2006 - 07:47 AM

Hi,

To begin with, I agree completely with PaulS but I have a lot of questions regarding what garywbush wrote.

Quote:

MaryRezk

Posts: 10

Joined: Dec 11, 2006

Posted: Dec 27, 2006 - 08:35 AM

Sorry about that, I haven't posted before.

garywbush wrote:

Quote:

I don't think that is at all what they meant. I don't think that they're trying to impose Islam on us, just that they're trying to make people understand each other without always having the barrier of religion there. Religion is only one thing that defines people but there are a lot of other factors in there. I don't mean to generalize but, a lot of Christians, especially in the U.S., view Muslims in a very bad light. What would it be like if we just met someone and tried to understand who they really are and not distancing ourself the minute we find out they're Muslim.

Also garywbush wrote:

Quote:

As the land of "Turkey" is really Greece, and so His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI has the right to visit Greece and raise the Greek flag over Constantinople, the eternal capital of the Greeks.

I don't understand what garywbush meant by that at all. Last I checked, Turkey was formerly the Ottoman Empire, not Greece.

Also garywbush wrote:

Quote:

I pray that God allows a greater Israel from the Nile in Egypt to the Euphrates in Iraq.

First, I have a question for garywbush and I don't mean to be racist or anything but are you an Israeli descendant or something (?) because that is what is written in the Kenesset of Israel. Second, whether you are or are not Israeli (this is for anyone), Israel does not have a right to exist in the first place. The land where Israelis currently live is Palestine and belongs rightfuly to the Palestinians. Here, according to what garywbush wrote, Israel not only has a right to take the land of the Palestinians from them but also a part of the land of Egypt and a part of the land of Iraq. I really don't undertsand how anyone can defend that stealing. If anyone's a terrorist, then it's the Israelis who have butchered and masacred hundreds of people and still do to this day. Apparently, the immunity granted to Israel by the United States allows them to get away with anything.

Also garywbush wrote:

Quote:

Egypt, Israel and Assyria shall be one on the last day so says the Bible. We shall all speak Coptic, Hebrew, and Aramaic.

I may just have missed that part but, where does it say that in the Bible?

Later on garywbush says:

Quote:

Is it because we hate Arabs?

I don't undertsand what he's saying. We are Arabs so how can we hate ourselves?

Afterwards garywbush writes:

Quote:

Lobby your U.S. congressmen or EU member of parliament and demand that they request Saudi Arabia stop persecuting Arab Christians.

First of all, the U.S. only cares about Arabs when it affects their politics. Second of all, I don't think that the U.S. is stupid enough to aggravate another country further. It is enough what they are doing to Iraq and Iran. Lastly, but most importantly, I think it is the Arab nations who should take action, not the U.S. The U.S. has nothing to do with it.

Finally garywbush wrote:

Quote:

All Copts should stop their petty racism and get involved in human rights!

I don't like generalization over all and here specificaly, garywbush talks about Copts in a very bad way. Some people might be racist but there is no reason to say that "all Copts" are.

Therefore, I really think garywbush himself needs to be a little less racist and biased in his views.

P.S. (what does "dhimmis" mean?)

Pray for me,
Mary Rezk

tonyhabibi

Posts: 1221

Joined: Apr 09, 2004
Location: IN THE back of your mind .navagating through your heart , resting in your soul .

Posted: Dec 27, 2006 - 09:22 AM

Mary rezk wrote :

" I really don't undertsand how anyone can defend that stealing. If anyone's a terrorist, then it's the Israelis who have butchered and masacred hundreds of people and still do to this day."

Before i begin i would like to remind readers that me nor you have had anyone killed by israeli or palistinian forces ... and if we did have one of our relatives killed in the many wars for israel , then our opinions would be extrememly hardened , against the force that killed our family member .

though i do not fully disagree with u , i do somewhat . me , being a lebanese person , who hated israel when they were bombing my country in the summer , has not only forgiven israel , but actually wanted them to continue destroying hezbollah . however , sadly they did not accomplish the task .
anyways i mentioned that i was lebanese to show u that i by culture am supposed to be against israel .
but you have to recognize the history and religious aspect . not only did the UNITED NATIONS decide on the formation of israel , but religiously it is there land cuz the bible tells me so.

also , once yasserr arafat the leader of the PLO was offered a HUGE chunk of land ( territory before the 1967 war ) , never offered to palistine before , for the sake of peace , but he refused it .... he wanted all . ( which i do not totally blame him for , but i blame him for not being so realistic , and not being open to help the living conditions of his people , more land = more space = less cramped refugee camps = more job openings = more prosperity . but he refused .

also , once egypt occupied the gaza strip for a period of months . why didnt the palistinians rebel against the egyptians ? werent they occupying their land ? so its a HATE that is in the palistinian to hate israel .
this is the difference between israel and palistine .

if an israeli civilian was in palistine and got hurt due to natural causes , the palistinains would want to further kill him and wouldent even think about bringing him to the hospital ..
however if a palistinain person was in israeli territory and he needed to go to the israeli hospital , not only would the jews treat him , but treat him for as long as they have to .

i recommend reading the life of brigette gabriel , author of the book , BECAUSE THEY HATE .

U CAN ALSO visit her website AMERICANCONGRESSFORTRUTH.COM

IT OPENED MY EYES .

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MaryRezk

Posts: 10

Joined: Dec 11, 2006

Posted: Dec 27, 2006 - 10:40 AM

Hi,

First, I'm Egyptian and have never had any relatives killed by Israel so I know that I shouldn't exactly be the first person to speak but I still believe that Israelis are terrorists. I mean, yes, I hoped too that Israel could destroy Hezballah and I still hope that all these terrorist factions can destroy each other but I don't understand how you can forgive Israel this easily after they bombed Lebanon. (I mean, to forgive others is good and doing what Jesus told us to do and everything but it's not that easy).

Also, just because the "United Nations" decided on the formation of Israel doesn't mean that that was right. They shouldn't have taken others' land away to give to the Israelis. And where does the Bible say that that is their land?

Another thing, I don't think that the Palestinians just hate anyone who's ccupying their land, just those who are killing and torturing them while occupying their land. And Egypt occupied the Gaza Strip after it had been stolen from us by Israel so we were just trying to get back our land.

I went on Gabriel's website and I agree with what she says on the Muslim terrorists. But Muslims are not the only ones who are terrorists, Israelis are terrorists also and I don't understand why she says "betrayed by my country, rescued by my enemy, Israel." ?

Finally, when you say "if a Palistinian person was in Israeli territory and he needed to go to the Israeli hospital, not only would the Jews treat him, but treat him for as long as they have to." on what do you base that?

I would recommend going to this website: http://www.thewe.cc/contents/more/archi ... ar_crimes, where it shows a sample of what Israel has done and still does.

Aren't those Israelis who do such things as much terrorists as those in El-Qaeda or Hezballah?

Pray for me,
Mary

Remnkemi
Ask me for help!
Posts: 676

Joined: Apr 07, 2003
Location: Boston, MA USA

Posted: Dec 27, 2006 - 12:09 PM

Guys, it's good to talk about politics and terriorism. It is not good, nor acceptable, to point fingers and argue who is the bigger terrorist. This has no benefit to those who read the forums, nor those who visit to find out who are the Coptic Orthodox Christians.

Cool it down. Remember, we live by the True Love, Jesus, not hatred.
George

MaryRezk

Posts: 10

Joined: Dec 11, 2006

Posted: Dec 27, 2006 - 12:50 PM

ummm ... sorry if my post sounded angry or anything ... I guess I just get fired up whenever it's the subject of Israel. Smile

Pray for me,
Mary

tonyhabibi

Posts: 1221

Joined: Apr 09, 2004
Location: IN THE back of your mind .navagating through your heart , resting in your soul .

Posted: Dec 27, 2006 - 04:30 PM

ok , u raise some good points , the website u provided was very disgusting . i want be clear when i remind u that im not totally disagreeing with you . but let me be clearer about what i said .

yes israel by religion rightfully belongs to the jews . u told me to provide u with the verses ... ok i will .

Genesis 15:18-21: On that day, God made a covenant with Abram, saying: "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river the Euphrates. The land of the Kenites, Kenizites, Kadmonites; the Chitties, Perizites, Refaim; the Emorites, Canaanites, Gigashites and Yevusites."

Joshua 1:1-6 Now it came about after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD, that the LORD spoke to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' servant, saying, "Moses My servant is dead; now therefore arise, cross this Jordan, you and all this people, to the land which I am giving to them, to the sons of Israel. "Every place on which the sole of your foot treads, I have given it to you, just as I spoke to Moses.

Deuteronomy 34:1-4 Now Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, which is opposite Jericho. And the LORD showed him all the land, Gilead as far as Dan, and all Naphtali and the land of Ephraim and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah as far as the western sea [Mediterranean Sea], and the Negev and the plain in the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, as far as Zoar. Then the LORD said to him, "This is the land which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, 'I will give it to your descendants'; I have let you see {it} with your eyes, but you shall not go over there."

Jos 1:4 "From the wilderness and this Lebanon (NIV says:...'from the desert to Lebanon'), even as far as the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and as far as the Great Sea [Mediterranean Sea] toward the setting of the sun will be your territory. "No man will {be able to} stand before you all the days of your life. Just as I have been with Moses, I will be with you; I will not fail you or forsake you. "Be strong and courageous, for you shall give this people possession of the land which I swore to their fathers to give them

shall i go on ?

the website u provided to prove ur case that israel does horrible things is good . however , i can gather up a few gross pictures of victims such as children , moms , dads , sisters and brothers , who die due to suicide bombings on the buses , resteraunts etc .. we all bleed and we are all human .

yes , it is true that not as many jews die compared to arabs due to the conflict . but we must ask " why is that ? " ... is israel just killing people randomly ? or is there a sincere reason .

SELF DEFENSE . THE NOTION FOR SELF DEFENSE IS VERY WORTHY AND STANDS .

FOR EXAMPLE , IF MEXICO KIDNAPPED 2 SOLDIERS FROM AMERICAN BORDERS .... HOW WOULD THE UNITED STATES REACT ? .... NO MORE TACO BELL .

PART OF THE PROBLEM IS THE RELIGION OF ISLAM . A RELIGION THAT TEACHES HATE , A RELIGION THAT CALLS ME AND U AND JEWS WORLDWIDE PIGS AND MONKEYS .

YES I AM UPSET THAT ISRAEL KILLED 1000 LEBANESE IN THE SUMMER . BUT IF U KNOW YOUR FACTS , 97 % OF ALL THE BOMBS DROPPED ON LEBANON WERE DROPPED ON THE MUSLIM AREAS , WHERE HEZEBALLAH INFLUENCE AND AUTHORITY RULE . CHRISTIAN AREAS WERE ALMOST ALMOST LITERALLY UNTOUCHED . EXCEPT FOR A BOMB IN JOUNIEH .
anyways . i need to go , and i have more things info to bring forth to the table , but i will do it at a later time .

i recommend u to watch the movie PROMISES

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... q=PROMISES

THIS MOVIE WILL BRING A MORE HUMAN PERSPECTIVE TO THIS ISSUE .

THANK U .

PEACE .

[/i]

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MaryRezk

Posts: 10

Joined: Dec 11, 2006

Posted: Dec 28, 2006 - 11:43 AM

Hey,

Ok, the verses you gave are pretty good and I understand why you're arguing that Israel belongs to the Jews but they're all from the Old Testament. They're all when God was making his covenant with Abraham and Moses. They accepted Him and rejected everything else and all other idol gods so He made a covenant with them.

But, in the New Testament, the Jews reject God's Son, they reject Jesus and they accept that responsibility fully when they say "let his blood be on us and on our children!" (Matthew 27:25).

God would not have made a Covenant with Abraham or Moses if they did not believe in Him. In the same way, when the Jews rejected Jesus, the Covenant that God had made was annulled. The Covenant only stands with those who still believed in Jesus, those Jews who were renamed Christians.

Those "Christians" went out to spread Jesus' message. They are our ancestors. Therefore, technically, Israel by the definition that God gives us ("from the wilderness and this Lebanon (NIV says:...'from the desert to Lebanon'), even as far as the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and as far as the Great Sea [Mediterranean Sea]" (Joshua 1:4)) belongs to all those who believe in God. But God is part of the Trinity. The land of Israel cannot be given to those who believe in God but reject His Son.

That's what I think, but of course I may be wrong.

I watched the movie "Promises" and it definitely did bring a more humane perspective to the issue. I do hope, like many others, that the violence and the hatred could stop and that everyone can just live together peacefully.

I have a question, though, are you saying that what Israel is doing to Palestinians is in self-defense? And what does Islam have anything to do with this? Does it matter what religion the 1000 Lebanese people who were killed were? As you say "we all bleed and we are all human". It doesn't matter if we're Muslim or Christian, we're all human.

I may have completely misunderstood the last part of what you said. So if I did, I'm sorry.

Thanks,
Mary

minasoliman

Posts: 1757

Joined: May 22, 2003

Posted: Dec 28, 2006 - 03:08 PM

Dear Tony,

I'm sorry my friend, but I have to let you know that the Orthodox Church worldwide, including the Coptic Church, as well as the Catholic Church, the Anglican Church, and some Protestant groups reject the idea that Israel belongs to the Jews. A huge group of Protestants, specifically American Protestants espouse the idea that is called "Christian Zionism." This is nothing but heretical.

The verses you provided is supported by such heretical groups as if it should be a Christian cause to give the Jews Israel.

Israel as rejected Christ. Therefore, Israel no longer is restricted to a bloodline, but now by those who partake the Body and Blood of Christ. The Church is the new Israel; we are the rightful heirs to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

In addition, Christ stressed that his kingdom is not of this world. Therefore, Israel is nothing but a land of this world. Christ's kingdom is spiritual, and guess what? The spiritual Israel, the heavenly Jerusalem is where you go every Sunday. That is Israel. Not the land in the Middle East, but that building in Bayonne, NJ.

This is what the ancient Church has believed all the time. I believe Mary is more consistent with Orthodox Christian teaching.

Be careful what sources you read from Tony. The verses in the OT should be now understood in the spiritual sense, not literally.

As for the political debate, sometimes I feel neither Israel nor Palestine deserve a country on their own.

God bless you.

Mina

tonyhabibi

Posts: 1221

Joined: Apr 09, 2004
Location: IN THE back of your mind .navagating through your heart , resting in your soul .

Posted: Dec 28, 2006 - 07:19 PM

mina soliman , habibi , .... this is my reply to you ...

you are 100 % correct in EVERYTHING YOU SAID . and everything u said makes sense .

thank you for bringing me back to my reality .

your habibi ,
tony .

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Guest

Posted: Dec 31, 2006 - 12:54 PM

Here is my reply.....to the zionist..to all others....

http://www.copticheritage.org/PagEd+ind ... -837.phtml

Love this mix!!!!..it is COOL.. Smile

AND FINALLY---GOD BLESS POPE SHENOUDA THE THIRDDDDD FOR US AND FOR MANY YEARS TO COME!!!!!For his extreme wisdom!

garywbush

Posts: 53

Joined: Aug 30, 2006

Posted: Jan 08, 2007 - 06:50 AM

Zionism is like Arabism, a form of nationalism. Its certainly not a heresy as it is a political ideology. The Church allows its members to hold diverse political views.

Guest

Posted: Jan 08, 2007 - 09:54 AM

garywbush wrote:

Zionism is like Arabism, a form of nationalism. Its certainly not a heresy as it is a political ideology. The Church allows its members to hold diverse political views.

You can have a political view that is against the church beliefs. You can fight for homosexual rights as well and that is a very serious issue if you're a christian. Isn't that a "view" as well? (well guess what? it's also a sin)

I am sorry I wasn't following all your posts but are you saying that it is fair to kill all those innocent people for their 'LAND'so that you can make it Christian?? or to take over 'Land' to make it Christian? forgive my ignorance but you can't make a "land" christian....forgive me if I don't understand your view correctly. I'm not much into politics..That sounds to me like another Muhammad spreading Islam not a christian spreading christianity--with just a change of name for the sake of confusion??. Not the way Jesus and the apostles did it atleast! A bit hard to understand..Christianity is about love--God is Love..How can you spread love by force? love and force can't coexist...you want to win people over? don't take their Land, try to attract their hearts to God instead........Love them, don't kill them....

minasoliman

Posts: 1757

Joined: May 22, 2003

Posted: Jan 08, 2007 - 10:37 AM

garywbush wrote:

Zionism is like Arabism, a form of nationalism. Its certainly not a heresy as it is a political ideology. The Church allows its members to hold diverse political views.

There's a difference between supporting Israel for political reasons and supporting Israel because God willed that this is their own nation, that this is God's land, and the Jews that rejects Jesus today are God's people, and thus they MUST have their land according to theological reasons.

Panarabism is different. It's a political unity, kinda like Napoleon trying to unite Europe. It would be one powerful nation to doing so and for thinking in that manner, it's a political reason.

Zionism (coming from a Christian) does not think politically, but religiously.

Big difference.

God bless.

Mina

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