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mikokiko

Posts: 1027

Joined: Feb 11, 2003

Posted: Mar 25, 2007 - 10:16 PM

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
What is the meaning of the verse? If I were to take this literally, it would mean that the Son is not One with the Father and therefore not God. So what does this verse really mean?

Epideacon

Posts: 96

Joined: Apr 26, 2006

Posted: Mar 26, 2007 - 06:35 AM

The priest of my church explained it this way. God does not want us to know when the hour of judgement is because if we know when it is, i.e. if we know when we are going to die, then we can plan out our lives and arrange for the time of our death to be Christian and be with God. Basically, I'm saying that whenever we would sin, we wouldn't try to confess as soon as possible because we know when we're going to die. But, God doesn't want us to live that way. He wants us to live with him all of the time and for our whole lives, not just in our last hours. And so, by telling his apostles that he doesn't know, he implicitly told them not to worry about it. (Remember, in the previous verse I believe the disciples asked him when the end of days would be). God doesn't want us to be preoccupied with when we are going to die so we can arrange when we are going to repent and when we are going to sin. He wants that we continually strive to repent and stay close to him.

lowlyman

Posts: 242

Joined: Apr 04, 2006

Posted: Mar 26, 2007 - 07:13 AM

Greetings;

The following are taken from: http://www.journalofbiblicalstudies.org ... _knows.htm

Basically, two school of thoughts: Athanatius, and gregory the Theologian say that Christ is ignorant in his humanity, and not in his divinity. Augustine, and hilary say that he knows not the time because he doesn't want us to know it.

Athanathius
He made this, as well as those other declarations as man, by reason of the flesh. For this as little as the others is the Word’s deficiency, but of that human nature whose property it is to be ignorant. . . Moreover this is proper to the Savior’s love of man; for since He was made man, He is not ashamed, because of the flesh which is ignorant, to say “I know not,” that He may show that knowing as God, He is but ignorant according to the flesh.[3]

Hilary of poitiers
Whenever God says that he does not know, He professes ignorance indeed, but is not under the defect of ignorance. It is not because of the infirmity of ignorance that He does not know, but because it is not yet the time to speak, or the divine Plan to act . . . This knowledge is not, therefore, a change from ignorance, but the coming of the fulness of time. He waits still to know, but we cannot suppose that He does not know: therefore His not knowing what He knows, and His knowing what He does not know, is nothing else then a divine economy in word and deed.[8]

Gregory of Nazianzus (330–389)
Thus everyone must see that He knows as God, and knows not as Man; - if one may separate the visible from that which is discerned by thought alone. For the absolute and unconditioned use of the Name “The Son” in this passage, without the addition of whose Son, gives us this thought, that we are to understand the ignorance in the most reverent sense, by attributing it to the Manhood, and not to the Godhead.[11]

Augustine:
He said, that “of the day not even the Son of Man knew,” because it was not part of His office as our Master that through Him it should become known to us. For indeed that Father knoweth nothing that the Son knoweth not; since that is the Very Knowledge of the Father Itself, which is His Wisdom; now His Son, His Word, is “His Wisdom.” . . . Now thus according to a certain form of speech, the Son is said not to know what He does not teach: that is, in the same way that we are daily in the habit of speaking, He is said not to know what He causes us not to know.[17]

God bless

mikokiko

Posts: 1027

Joined: Feb 11, 2003

Posted: Mar 26, 2007 - 03:33 PM

thanks for all your replies, the verse is starting to make more sense (Augustine's xplanation made the most sense). However, I feel I need more explanation so that i can fully understand it. (The way the words of the verse are organized makes it seem it explicitly states that only the Father knows in a literal sense.) I also need it so I can answer a question posed by a Muslim I know.

Misteka

Posts: 194

Joined: Oct 05, 2005
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Posted: Mar 26, 2007 - 04:44 PM

For Christ to be ignorant in his humanity and not in his divinity opens up all sorts of theological wormholes. We enter into the murky land of the nature of christ after the union.

In my understanding and teaching, it may be more helpful to look at a verse like this in the same light as the Theophany at the River Jordan.

Christ was in no need of baptism, for He is the Pure Fountain. However, He was baptised in order to wash all humanity from impurity and to receive in His flesh, our humanity, the new nature which we received in our own baptism.

(Mourad and others, please correct me; I'm your student) This is what St. Severus calls the 'humanisation of the Word'. The process over the whole life of Christ for the humanity He is to become fully 'real' and 'whole', and to have all things affected to that flesh.

So, in the verse you're asking about, He is saying that to 'fulfill all righteousness' towards our salvation. And within this theological framework, Epideacon's explanation seems fitting
In the same regard,

Peter

Posts: 428

Joined: Mar 18, 2003
Location: Jersey City, NJ

Posted: Mar 26, 2007 - 06:52 PM

Also St. Cyril in his commentary on Luke, (Sermon 5) speaks about the divine wisdom and the incarnate nature.

Quote:

Be not therefore offended, considering perchance within thyself, How can God increase? or how can He Who gives grace to angels and to men receive fresh wisdom? Rather reflect upon the great skill wherewith we are initiated into His mystery. For the wise Evangelist did not introduce the Word in His abstract and incorporeal nature, and so say of Him that |30 He increased in stature and wisdom and grace, but after having shewn that He was born in the flesh of a woman, and took our likeness, he then assigns to Him these human attributes, and calls Him a child, and says that He waxed in stature, as His body grow little by little, in obedience to corporeal laws. And so He is said also to have increased in wisdom, not as receiving fresh supplies of wisdom,----for God is perceived by the understanding to be entirely perfect in all things, and altogether incapable of being destitute of any attribute suitable to the Godhead:----but because God the Word gradually manifested His wisdom proportionably to the age which the body had attained.

link to the full sermon
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/cyril ... _11.htm#C5

mikokiko

Posts: 1027

Joined: Feb 11, 2003

Posted: Mar 27, 2007 - 12:05 AM

Peter thanks for your reply its helping a lot. It starting to get clearer, but there is a question I need to get rid of from my mind, and that is, is there a reason why so many people mistaken Christ as simply man and not God, because of not seeing past His manhood? Why did God not make Lord Jesus' Divinity more clear in a way that you could not debate whether or not He was a mere human. I hope you understand what I am trying to ask...

lowlyman

Posts: 242

Joined: Apr 04, 2006

Posted: Mar 27, 2007 - 06:37 AM

mikokiko wrote:

is there a reason why so many people mistaken Christ as simply man and not God, because of not seeing past His manhood?

Please be careful and pray. You will experience Jesus divinity first hand if you believe. And once you experience it, there is nothing that will separate you from the love of Christ your God.
people mistake him for a man b/c it serves their material interests.

mikokiko wrote:

Why did God not make Lord Jesus' Divinity more clear in a way that you could not debate whether or not He was a mere human. ..

ok, some facts..

He was born from a Virgin...
Died on the cross and arose from the dead
ascended into heaven
raised the dead lazarus after 4 days in the tomb, after he was dissolved to dust...
walked on water
healed all the sick
forgave sins
told you that He is the son of God.
healed the born blind
sent us his holy spirit
His fishermen disciples conquered the world by their holy blood..
many died confessing him
His saints, those who believe in Hs name raised the dead, walked on water, healed the sick, reappeared after they died..
taught us the truth, and the way..

what else do you need? Just ask him and he will do it for you, including being crucified again for YOU.

christian Love
lowly

Misteka

Posts: 194

Joined: Oct 05, 2005
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Posted: Mar 27, 2007 - 07:41 AM

Why didn't Christ manifest His Divinity more clearly? No idea. Probably, at the outset, part of the mystery of God's will for the Incarnation..

We can surmise that it was all part of Christ's full attempt at masking His Divinity at all times, to bring about all righteousness, and to call people to obey and believe in Him not because He says "Yo! I'm God!" but rather that they see He is God through His actions.

Remember, for a Jew listening to Christ, he or she knew that Christ was making subtle claims to divinty. No one could have said "I and the Father are one" or "I am Him". Those are direct statements showing He is God. Perhaps, it would be clearer to us modern readers if we always read the original languages of the Scriptures.

Does that answer your question?

mikokiko

Posts: 1027

Joined: Feb 11, 2003

Posted: Mar 27, 2007 - 04:06 PM

yes...that actually did help a lot, thanks. It would be great if more people to comment on the verse though.

mikokiko

Posts: 1027

Joined: Feb 11, 2003

Posted: Feb 04, 2008 - 11:43 PM

Anyone have anything to say about this verse? I still get this sense of Christ explicitly stating that He knows not that hour. St. Augustine's answer and a few of the other Father's answers were somewhat satisfying but did not fully satisfy my ability to accept the interpretation of this statement in that manner. Can anyone comment on it?

mikokiko

Posts: 1027

Joined: Feb 11, 2003

Posted: Feb 06, 2008 - 03:54 PM

Nothing still?

Biboboy

Posts: 726

Joined: Sep 28, 2004

Posted: Feb 06, 2008 - 06:56 PM

Agape,

We believe that the Wisdom, Reason, and Word of God became perfect Man, which means that Christ in this one nature out of two chose to "empty" his divinity and accepted to be fully human, with all human limitations. Those limitations are not just physical limitations (e.g. growing up), but also psychological limitations. That means that Christ, as an infant, had to learn to walk and talk just as we learn to walk and talk - even though in his divinity he is God's eternal Word who brought us into existence and made us walk. He had to learn everything as we learn, so his knowledge in the flesh was limited to what he knew as a human being (yet he did God's will because the divine and human wills were united, so he didn't learn and say just random info). That's why St. Luke says that he grew not only physically in his body, but also in wisdom (Luke 2:52).

The verse you asked about also prooves that Christ was perfect human, with a human psychology and knowledge that develops. It's a very interesting verse, actually: it shows his perfect humanity, because he is speaking in the flesh and his knowledge is based on what he knows in the flesh, and it also shows his divinity, because he speaks with the authority of his Father and as the Son of Man who will come in judgement.

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mikokiko

Posts: 1027

Joined: Feb 11, 2003

Posted: Feb 06, 2008 - 11:19 PM

But it mentions the angels as well who are spirits. Secondly, Christ revealed His Divinity invariably at times through His own knowledge (e.g. reading people's minds), these cannot be attributed to the flesh. So why is it when He speaks in such a general tone, that it is hard for me to accept what He says, for before this He speaks as knowing what will happen in the end times Himself, but does not know WHEN it will happen. Throughout Mark 13 He speaks with more authourity than any of the prophets for He knows from the Father what will happen in the end of days, that is, He is the Begotten knowledge of God, for He does not even say "God has told me thus:" as the rest of the prophets do, but speaks as if He is the very Image of the Father, as He says elsewhere: "He Who has seen Me has seen the Father."
That is, the Incorporeal God has no Physical Image, (as St. John says "No one has seen the Father at any time, the Only-Begotten God Who is in the Bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.") but we begin to 'see' the Father when He reveals His Reason to us tangibly so that our humanity is Divinized by His Power. So then how does One with all this authourity speak with such knowledge as One from God throughout Mark 13, and then conclude saying that He knows not the time? Not the Son, nor the angels, but only the Father? And notice here too, had He been speaking in the flesh, He might have reffered to Himself as the Son of Man, but He refers to Himself as the Son to God the Father.

mikokiko

Posts: 1027

Joined: Feb 11, 2003

Posted: Feb 08, 2008 - 03:43 PM

Still nothing?

jydeacon

Posts: 147

Joined: Jan 16, 2007

Posted: Feb 08, 2008 - 03:52 PM

mikokiko wrote:

Regarding this quote, i was always told had he not hid His Divinity as he did, they would not have crucified Him or even killed him for that matter. They would have made him King(which was what they were looking for at the time because they were under the control of the Romans) How would we have been saved then. Clearly for Redemption His Blood was required, so how then if he manifested his Divinity would he have been able to save us. God is fair, the penalty of sin is death. It is not possible for God to contradict Himself. He required death. Hope this helped.
God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness

_________________
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your soul. Remember that God never left you, it is you who left God.

mikokiko

Posts: 1027

Joined: Feb 11, 2003

Posted: Feb 08, 2008 - 05:50 PM

Yes, but He does not do that by teaching false doctrines.

lowlyman

Posts: 242

Joined: Apr 04, 2006

Posted: Feb 09, 2008 - 09:45 AM

why weren't you saitisfied with the Saints' answers? what more can we say that would benefit you more than those who fought the good fight, and finished the race?

mikokiko wrote:

Yes, but He does not do that by teaching false doctrines.

mikokiko

Posts: 1027

Joined: Feb 11, 2003

Posted: Feb 09, 2008 - 11:00 AM

Yes, but not even all the saints have the same answer. So, I don't know, I mean their interpretations make sense, but they don't seem to fit completely in the passage given.

lowlyman

Posts: 242

Joined: Apr 04, 2006

Posted: Feb 12, 2008 - 12:57 PM

All the orthodox saints agree that Jesus knows the time. what is left for interpertation is why Jesus said what he said. I'd say, let's wait until we meet himto find out.

lowlyman

mikokiko wrote:

Yes, but not even all the saints have the same answer. So, I don't know, I mean their interpretations make sense, but they don't seem to fit completely in the passage given.

mikokiko

Posts: 1027

Joined: Feb 11, 2003

Posted: Feb 12, 2008 - 02:48 PM

I myself agree and believe that He knows the time, since New Testament makes it clear that He is omniscient, as a Son to God the Father, and a heir to His throne of Divinity, sitting at the right hand of the Glory, as the Inheritor of the Kingdom of God, no knowledge can be hidden from Him, since He inherits the same Nature as His Father, when He begat Him since eternity.

I am still wondering what the verse actually means though, that is what I was talking about.

Origenos

Posts: 277

Joined: Dec 09, 2003

Posted: Feb 14, 2008 - 07:52 PM

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
He humbled himself and took the form of the servant;
and the servant knows not what his lord does: (John 15:15)

mikokiko

Posts: 1027

Joined: Feb 11, 2003

Posted: Feb 16, 2008 - 01:42 PM

I am still not convinced this is what the verse means, as it was similarly used of the Father. For example in this verse: "For neither doth the Father judge any man, but he hath given all judgment unto the Son;"
Wait a minute if the Father is not the Judge, then how can He be called God? See, if we do not know what we are talking about here, we can be very confused as regards the meanins of all these verses. As God (the Father), does all things BY and THROUGH His Son, so too does the Father judge through His Son, in which in Him eternally "originates" all majesty and Power, being "later" eternally begotten in the Son. So to the Father makes known the day and hour of the judgment through the Son? For if all judgment has been committed to the Son, how can He being the Eternal judge of all flesh, be ignorant of the hour of His judgment?

petergergis

Posts: 20

Joined: Aug 05, 2004
Location: Walnut, Riverside, COCC

Posted: Feb 16, 2008 - 10:36 PM

+
peace and grace

the verse:
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
What is the meaning of the verse? If I were to take this literally, it would mean that the Son is not One with the Father and therefore not God. So what does this verse really mean?

When Christ said this, we know He is speaking of the day of judgment.

That the Son did not know, is not to say that Christ is not God and did not know, or that Christ is separate of the Father. Rather, that Christ in His divinity did know. In His humanity it was not revealed to the flesh, as it is not the will of God that the time of judgment be know by man. This is not to say that the divinity of Christ departed or separated from His flesh, only that the divinity of Christ superseded the flesh of the earth.

geomekhaiel

Posts: 1726

Joined: Aug 05, 2003
Location: Saint George COC

Posted: Feb 16, 2008 - 11:42 PM

Actually Peter, and everyone else,

If you go back to the original greek in which the Gospel was written in you will find that a more accurate translation of that verse is, "I know but I don't want to tell you."

Also, by saying that he knew in His divinity but not in his humanity you are divinding the nature of Christ. This is a no no.

Christ knew/knows when the end is to come.

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