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JGirgis137

Posts: 7

Joined: Apr 06, 2003

Posted: Apr 13, 2007 - 02:03 PM

I am sure that this topic has been posted several times in the past but I feel as if it is something that deserves attention.

One of the most important reasons for this site, as well as all of the other Coptic sites that provide media to its visitors, is to share the joy and the beauty that is Coptic hymnology. Which leads to my point...

Those of us that love and enjoy the hymns that these sites wish to share are limited in using them for any educational value due to the difficulty of learing from "streaming media". In order to learn a long or difficult hymn one must rewind and review portions several times. Without a doubt this would be much easier to do with an audio file saved on your hard drive...

I am sure we all know that there is a great deal of time and effort put into creating the media that we are listening to but I believe that those who put forth that effort want their works to be friutful. I would like to believe that Mu'alim Ibrahim Ayad and the HICS make all those tapes for the primary goal of teaching others not just showing thier vast knowledge...

The passing on of the hymns from generation to generation is far more important than "copyright infringement"....
But I do realize that it takes money to develop and record the hymns...

So what is the solution???

In my humble opinion......
A means of sharing the hymns and providing monetary support to those who provide them needs to be developed. I am sure that those of us who frequent this site and others like it would not have a problem paying for being able to fully use its resorces. I would like to suggest that the Coptic Media Network create a pay-to-download program where the hymns could be downloaded for a certain monthly or annual fee. These fees would be distributed to the providers of the downloadable media. Those vistors that did not want to download the hymns could still "stream" them as they do now.

I thank the people resposible for this site for all their hard work and I look forward to hearing what everyone has to say....

Thank you,
John G.

geomekhaiel

Posts: 1726

Joined: Aug 05, 2003
Location: Saint George COC

Posted: Apr 13, 2007 - 02:14 PM

John,

I agree with you but I advise you not to waste your time. People are really stubborn about this topic and things will never change (on this site). I recommend you try tasbeha.org...you can download from there.

Another alternative might be to get DSL/Cable Modem because it will help you stream things a lot faster....just like having downloaded it. (this is what I do and it works fine for me).

George Mekhaiel

AMoussa01

Posts: 534

Joined: Jan 08, 2007
Location: St. George and St. Joseph in San Jose California

Posted: Apr 13, 2007 - 02:41 PM

George is right. Tasbeha.org has everything for ibrahim ayad and a few others as well. If that doesnt help much, you can always learn from the HCOC classes on copticheritage.org

GB
Tony

JGirgis137

Posts: 7

Joined: Apr 06, 2003

Posted: Apr 13, 2007 - 02:50 PM

I think you guys are missing my point....

I did not mean Mu'alim Ibrahim Ayad specifically. I was just using him as an example.

There is a great deal of content on this site that you cannot find anywhere else and I was just hoping that it could be shared for more than just listening...

John G.

minaS

Posts: 196

Joined: Jun 26, 2003

Posted: Apr 13, 2007 - 04:01 PM

John,

I know exactly how you feel. However, I have spoken with the webmaster of this site about why only select hymns are downloadable and his answer made perfect sense: those who donate these tapes to us, ask for us not to offer these hymns for download. We have to respect their wishes. The admins on this site would no doubt love to offer these hymns for download, but there is an element of respect we have to uphold.

Here's the problem with paying. The Church is a non-profit orginization. If we start charging for hymns, someone will make a profit and that is not right. Additionally, who would they money that the site charges go to? It gets confusing from here.

By the way, you can try to learn from the streaming hymns because I find it fairly easy to learn from them. Only if you have a very slow internet connection will you have problems.

GBU,
MinaS

PaulS
Ask me for help!
Posts: 2441

Joined: Sep 09, 2002
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony Coptic Orthodox Church in Norco, CA

Posted: Apr 14, 2007 - 06:31 PM

Hello,

As we all know, service is something offered to God. Consequently, it must be a pure offering. After all, how can God accept something that is intentionally impure?

On this web site, we offer what we believe--according to the words of His Holiness Pope Shenouda himself--is pure. Moreover, those of you who know Mu'allim Ibrahim Ayaad know that he is unhappy with the free dissemination of his works, because, after all, this is his job and the source of his daily bread. There are many people who decide to ignore these things and do whatever they believe is right. I know other sites out there offer downloadable versions of tapes that are sold everywhere else. That is their interpretation of what is right; it is not sanctioned by the Pope or by the actual cantors. It is not for me to judge, but it is for me to decide I will not go down that path in this web site... that I will make sure this site is respectful and pure in its service, even if no one visits it. You may disagree with my conviction and that is fine. May God judge me if I have done you wrong.

A reference was made to our brother site, Tasbeha.org. It is a wonderful site with excellent service. I am proud of those who made and maintain it. However, even those servants acknowledge the value of hard work in service.

For example, they produced a wonderful Pascha book a couple of years ago and offered a non-editable electronic version for download. Many people requested an editable version so they could customize this and that. However, the servants refused, stating that they worked hard on the book and did not want it to be freely distributed. Rather, it was to be sold by St. Mark in Jersey City. In this circumstance, that was their wish, and it is a perfectly respectable wish. The important point in all of this, however, is that they applied the very same logic that I am applying to hymns when it came to their own work. It is essentially a "you cannot fully own this because we are selling it" policy. They do not, for whatever reason, apply that policy to the works of others. On this site, we do apply that same logic to the works of others.

If you disagree, forgive me.

GBU,
ps

geomekhaiel

Posts: 1726

Joined: Aug 05, 2003
Location: Saint George COC

Posted: Apr 14, 2007 - 10:26 PM

Paul said:

Quote:

Moreover, those of you who know Mu'allim Ibrahim Ayaad know that he is unhappy with the free dissemination of his works, because, after all, this is his job and the source of his daily bread.

Then isn't it wrong to allow people to stream those hymns because if people are able to stream those hymns then they would not have a reason to buy the tapes which produce Ibrahim Ayad's, "daily bread." Therefore, even this site is helping to take, "The source of his daily bread."

I understand that by not letting people download them and only letting them stream them you will put a stop to allowing people to burn and sell them. But if people really wanted to burn/sell them they will find other ways (really easy things to do). Things like a mini stereo wire can be hooked up to the computer and can record to an mp3 player and have it record the hymn to it. Then they just have to upload their sound recording to the computer and burn it.

.....i have never done this, nor do I ever wish to do it. Also, I am not a computer wiz who thinks about this type of stuff a lot. But the point that I'm trying to make is that if I could think of a way to do this bad thing then I'm sure that other, more computer savvy people, could do it.

I'm not trying to get you to change the download policy but I didn't like the statement that you made about other people taking away Ibrahim Ayad's daily bread but this site does not.

George Mekhaiel

_________________
George Mekhaiel

abahoor

Posts: 353

Joined: Feb 14, 2004

Posted: Apr 14, 2007 - 10:30 PM

PaulS wrote:

Hello,
On this web site, we offer what we believe--according to the words of His Holiness Pope Shenouda himself--is pure.

I disagree....and it's not mine to forgive.

H.H. said no such thing about hymns or Christian songs tapes, CDs, or any kind of audio recording. Also we all know if H.H. would have said it as serious as your saying Paul it would have been followed by everyone in the church. But guess what, it was the same as that time he said all the US churches have to follow the recording of the Northern diocese but guess what, every church still uses there own way even though H.H. said so.
The only time that he actually made a great statement was when he spoke about video tapes that cost many thousand of pound to make. But he didn’t mix audio tapes with video.

Quote:

For example, they produced a wonderful Pascha book a couple of years ago and offered a non-editable electronic version for download. Many people requested an editable version so they could customize this and that. However, the servants refused, stating that they worked hard on the book and did not want it to be freely distributed. Rather, it was to be sold by St. Mark in Jersey City. In this circumstance, that was their wish, and it is a perfectly respectable wish. The important point in all of this, however, is that they applied the very same logic that I am applying to hymns when it came to their own work. It is essentially a "you cannot fully own this because we are selling it" policy. They do not, for whatever reason, apply that policy to the works of others. On this site, we do apply that same logic to the works of others.

Now in this case of a book, the book that was put online was for the use of projectors. Now there would be no reason for any one to edit anything in the book. Also the text of many hymns is online for many to use and to copy and paste.
Also as you said it above, took couple years to develop. Does it really take that long to learn a hymn, record it, and distribute it some how. Also does it cost as much as to record a hymn?!!!!!!
Am sorry Paul but when it comes to alhan and all that hymns "copy right", I just say one thing, "Freely you have received freely give." (Matthew 10:8).
Now none and I am saying none of our clergy including deacons, priests, and bishops would answer back with anything concerning that matter.

mmatt95

Posts: 463

Joined: Jul 16, 2003
Location: COC of St. Mary, Abu Seifein, St Mina and Anba Mousa, Amsterdam, The Netherlands

Posted: Apr 15, 2007 - 11:19 AM

Concerning downloading hymns, for most of us here in the west the problem is not that we don't want to buy the tapes (c'mon how much is 100 pounds for nearly all the seasonal tapes), but rather that its hard to find them (especially if you go to Egypt once every 4 or 5 years).
Another problem is that the tapes arent really practical, a digital form is far easier to learn from.
How did I personally solve this problem...by downloading whatever I need, but whenever I go to Egypt I just buy the tapes (I dont use them though, I just buy them for the sake of paying for the recordings).
Now I know that not everybody does this, but it's wrong to say that whoever downloads hymns is a thief and doesnt want to pay, it's simply not true!

Now, I just have one simple question concerning the limitation on downloading hymns on coptichymns.net and sister sites; why are so many live recordings (liturgies and sermons) not available for downloading?? For example, there's so many great sermons on copticheritage.org about rites and hymns that are not available for downloading. My question is WHY? There's no copy right issue here!

Also, I think George is correct when he says that streaming files can be easily "stolen" with rather simple tricks and software.
Moreover, I wonder if people would still buy tapes if they have a powerfull internet connection and can listen to any hymn as if it was downloaded. The only difference would be that they can't put it on an mp3 player to listen away from the computer...

Hope I didnt cause any offending, I'm simply speaking my mind here, and I thank everybody who puts effort in all these wonderfull sites.

P=,=c aftwnf

Biboboy

Posts: 725

Joined: Sep 28, 2004

Posted: Apr 15, 2007 - 07:41 PM

Christ is risen,

Since HCOC was brought up, I thought I should respond, although PaulS made it clear what our position is on the CMN.

One thing that bothered me in one of the posts above - it quoted the Gospel to approve of infringing copyright. That's wrong for two reasons: 1. it's proof-texting; 2. it's using the Gospel to justify sin.

In more details: proof-texting is when you have an opinion and you look for any quote in the Bible (or any book) to support and boost your position. The example here is clear: you have the opinion that church material must be free, or copied freely, because it was given by previous generations freely, so you stumble across the quote "freely you have received, so freely give." This is wrong, because it takes the quote completely out of context and twists its intention. When Christ said the above quote to the apostles when he sent them to preach, he was specifically talking about the Gospel (the good news, who is Jesus Christ). He came freely to offer himself for all of us, so no one could charge you to hear or be a part of this freely offered gift: the Body of Christ. So the quote is not read in its context and is used here merely as a means of proof-texting your own opinion. (Side-note: This has nothing to do with tithes, because tithes are a matter of you freely choosing to offer what you have earned. They're not a means of buying salvation or God's favor).

The second reason is that it is a sin to steal and to infringe copyrighted materials. You cannot justify sin through the Bible.

Another point I want to make is that there is a mistaken assumption that church material, such as hymns, are for free. The truth is, it's not. Previously, cantors used to charge money if you wanted to just listen to a hymn outside the liturgical context. That stopped now, but cantors still get paid for their services in church. So, hymns are not free anyway.

Concerning the HCOC, which doesn't charge for hymns (cantors don't get paid outside of Egypt! Laughing

), getting the material for researching the right hymns as well as recording the hymns in the studio and publishing them on cd are expensive. Those costs are reflected in the prices of the CDs, and any profits made are used to cover the costs of further productions. In other words, copyrights are necessary to keep anything functioning. No one is benefiting in a monatery sense, but we're all benefiting spiritually - the HCOC members through their service, and everyone in the world through learning the correct renditions of Coptic hymns and listening to them for prayer.

So, an infringement in this case would mean that not only is the person(s) involved disrespecting the service of the HCOC, but also disrespecting the spiritual benefit of other people who would like to get the productions. It's double-stealing: stealing of hymns for personal benefit, and stealing of souls for personal benefit, and the latter is worse than the former.

The above applies to all services offered through the amazing hard-work and dedication of the church servants.

There are ways of getting around copyright. For example, you want to listen to the HCOC productions on your mp3 player, or you want to record something that's streaming on the website. That is fine, provided that it's only for private use that you rip a CD or record a streaming file. It would be an infringement if you are burning the CDs and offering them as a gift to someone you know, or if you are for selling it to anyone.

Finally, the streaming material on the website is up by permission of the authors, and it was their request that they remain streaming. They are streaming to avoid infringements. If you would like a whole copy of any of the material, for e.g. a sermon, for distribution purposes (rather than private use) you should contact the author and publisher of the material and ask for permission. You would do the same if you were to copy more than 25% of a (useless) fiction book - how much more respect would you show to church services?

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member

+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

shaq

Posts: 337

Joined: Feb 07, 2003
Location: brooklyn,NY

Posted: Apr 15, 2007 - 08:25 PM

If I may say something.

First of all, whether there are downloads or not, this site has done a great service. May God bless them.

Of course copyrights are necessary and Mlm Ibrahim requested his tapes not to be downloaded and we should respect that. But I think that goes without him asking because like Biboboy said, it costs money to do all this and some people like mlm Ibrahim live off of the sales.

The same should be applied to any cd, tape, or video made by any church such as the song cds or liturgies professionally recorded.

I do not believe the same should apply for most of the recordings on this site though. From what I understand, the HICS want their recordings available for the public. They do not want people making money off their recordings but they want people to have them. This should be obvious since Mlm Mikhael's 24 tapes are available for download as Madame Laurence had requested.

I wish someone would justify why all the other recordings by the cantors are not available for download. I do not see any proof of a copyright. In fact, half of these hymns arent even sold in churches.

The only case that would make sense to me is if the person who gave these recordings to the website requested they would not be made available for download. In that case, it is respecting the word of those people whether the site agrees or not.

I personally disagree with the people requesting their recordings not to be downloaded. If there is no copyright or if they are not planning on making cds for sales, it is just selfishness. This is how many recordings and hymns have perished. Because people did not want to share, not because people did not respect copyrights or sales. They were just selfish and did not share.

I would actually like to receive an answer concerning the "copyrights" or reasons as to why only certain recordings that I have mentioned are not available for download. If it is purely we are respecting the wish of those who gave them to us, I would completely understand.

Smile

abahoor

Posts: 353

Joined: Feb 14, 2004

Posted: Apr 16, 2007 - 09:14 AM

Biboboy wrote:

Christ is risen,
One thing that bothered me in one of the posts above - it quoted the Gospel to approve of infringing copyright. That's wrong for two reasons: 1. it's proof-texting; 2. it's using the Gospel to justify sin.

Here is the verse in context:

Matthew 10: 5-10
10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
10:9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts,
10:10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.

Quote:

In more details: proof-texting is when you have an opinion and you look for any quote in the Bible (or any book) to support and boost your position. The example here is clear: you have the opinion that church material must be free, or copied freely, because it was given by previous generations freely, so you stumble across the quote "freely you have received, so freely give." This is wrong, because it takes the quote completely out of context and twists its intention. When Christ said the above quote to the apostles when he sent them to preach, he was specifically talking about the Gospel (the good news, who is Jesus Christ). He came freely to offer himself for all of us, so no one could charge you to hear or be a part of this freely offered gift: the Body of Christ. So the quote is not read in its context and is used here merely as a means of proof-texting your own opinion. (Side-note: This has nothing to do with tithes, because tithes are a matter of you freely choosing to offer what you have earned. They're not a means of buying salvation or God's favor).

As you said before, the verse was used to preach the bible, Jesus Christ and His faith. But also before the verse it said:
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons.
that mean he gave them power to do these things. So it’s not only to preach His name but also to prove it with acts. Now alhan, or anything that is in connection in church is part of the church and is considered part of preaching. You can’t deny that. Actually you would be one of the best persons to know that since you are in fact part of the HCOC. You, as part of the chorus, can’t deny that you’re chanting all of these hymns as part of Jesus’ worship, can you?!!!

Now you said: ‘He came freely to offer himself for all of us.'
Of course He did, that’s one main reason of our belief in Him right now…..but that also includes everything that is in connection with Him. His words; the bible, His power; which He gave to His apostles and to us, and what He gave to His apostles during the 40 days after His Resurrection; which is written down in the apostles writings and is handed down to us through the tradition of our church.

Quote:

The second reason is that it is a sin to steal and to infringe copyrighted materials. You cannot justify sin through the Bible.

I would love to understand what’s the sin in what I am saying. I would love, for you, to provide us here with a verse or explanation of our fathers that goes against with what I said above and that prove that it’s a sin.
(and i am waiting for that now)

Steeling, maybe, but how. If I learning a hymn from an old and great muallem, and that muallem dies and I went and recorded the hymn and put a copyright on it….isn’t stealing. I didn’t ask the muallem to recorded and copyright it and I also didn’t pay a cent to learn. Than isn’t that stealing.

For a current example. Am sure in HCOC, Albair brings many long and rare hymns to the public. Like the Tomas hymn, long Aven pi-arche ervs, O-oneitak, and many more. Does he really pays money to get them or does he get permission to rerecord them. And wait does the person who gave him the tape or the hymn, does he have permission to give it to others from the original cantor or……..
Look Biboboy, if you want to call it stealing, that’s fine. But than we are stealing.

Quote:

Another point I want to make is that there is a mistaken assumption that church material, such as hymns, are for free. The truth is, it's not. Previously, cantors used to charge money if you wanted to just listen to a hymn outside the liturgical context. That stopped now, but cantors still get paid for their services in church. So, hymns are not free anyway.

WOW….how are they not. I thought you said Christ gave us Himself for free. Since He gave us Himself, doesn’t that mean everything that is in Him or for Him to?!!! Please tell me if I am mistaken.

Now when you say: "So, hymns are not free anyway." You are fully mistaken. First a hymn, if it’s really a spiritual hymn that benefits spiritually, is not a person’s. If cantors' words are right about hymns being put together in a very carefully manner and are written in a very spiritual way that makes it food for the spirit, than they are not that persons'.
For example, the Psalies that we have for many occasions and saints. HG Bishop Youannes said before that they are put by monks that are living with God all the time. That means it’s not there selves who would put it but their love and faith in God that would help them do write all of these words. That’s just concerning texts. As for tuning the hymns, who gives a person his great and wonderful voice…God. I personally love listening to cantor Ibrahim Ayad. If I asked him about his voice, would he deny that God gave it to him to actually do what he does now. No he would never deny. Because if he does, what ever he chants or records for other to learn would be in vain since it doesn’t refer to God.

So what I am trying to say is, God gave us what we have, it’s not fully ours. He gave it for us to keep it and to bless His name with it as we say in the 3rd Hoos. And since it’s not fully yours as a possession, than it’s not fully yours to copyright it. Also that makes it free.

geomekhaiel

Posts: 1726

Joined: Aug 05, 2003
Location: Saint George COC

Posted: Apr 16, 2007 - 09:20 AM

Couldn't have said it better myself abahoor (way to go! Wink

)

JGirgis137

Posts: 7

Joined: Apr 06, 2003

Posted: Apr 16, 2007 - 11:14 AM

This discussion has veered off the original course that I had intended when I posted this topic...

I was not implying that the hymns on this site should be free. My solution entails charging a monthly or annual fee that could be passed on to those who are provided their "daily bread" by these recordings.

It is unreasonable to suggest that this is "stealing". I am also not implying that the providers of this site become a profitable entity. This site is currently being run amazingly... How difficult would it be for visitors to pay a few dollars on Paypal or something of that nature to download the hymns for PERSONAL USE???

As several have stated, if someone wanted to make and sell CD's using the media on this site they could. But I believe that the reproduction and sale of these recordings is irrelevant in this discussion. Do not infringe on the benefit of the majority because of the wrong doing of the minority. This thought process is very extreme. An analogy would be if one person was excommunicated for a sin then everyone would be excommunicated even though they had done nothing wrong.

Everyone who visits this site and takes the time to both discuss and learn the hymns appreciates and loves them too much to participate in "copyright infringement"...

May we all benefit from the hymns that Our Lord Jesus Christ has given us and use them to praise His Name...

I hope that no takes offense from what I have said and if so I am truly sorry.

John G.

abahoor

Posts: 353

Joined: Feb 14, 2004

Posted: Apr 16, 2007 - 11:25 AM

JGirgis137 wrote:

Well that does happend. clergy memebers who are just dadicated for church services like cantors and priests n most of the subdeacons or full deacons get a mounthy salary to live from.

Quote:

It is unreasonable to suggest that this is "stealing". I am also not implying that the providers of this site become a profitable entity. This site is currently being run amazingly... How difficult would it be for visitors to pay a few dollars on Paypal or something of that nature to download the hymns for PERSONAL USE???

well i tihnk that goes back to PaulS and his admin team. but to me i think this will replace the word service on the site. it should be a nonprofit organization that accepts donation...likie it is already.

JGirgis137

Posts: 7

Joined: Apr 06, 2003

Posted: Apr 16, 2007 - 12:01 PM

Again as I orginally stated, if you DO NOT want to participate in the pay-to-download idea you don't have to. Those who do not want to participate would still be able to stream as normal.

As for the first section of your reply... I am not implying that the people who record the hymns do not deserve compensation. I am sure whatever they are getting is not enough for all the great work that they do. I am also sure that the additional financial support that this site (and others that would incorporate this idea) could provide would be very helpful and encouraged.

Everyone should strive for the growth of Coptic hymnology and do their part to see it flourish for this generation and generations to come. That is my entire point.

John G.

Biboboy

Posts: 725

Joined: Sep 28, 2004

Posted: Apr 16, 2007 - 12:34 PM

Christ is risen,

John, you make a good and reasonable suggestion. However, the problem is that we are not allowed to sell through copticheritage.org. I'm not sure if you were aware that we used to sell our productions through our website, but now we have to send them to distributors to sell them. It's a very complicated issue of dealing with Revenue Canada and the limits that our priests and church administration have set on selling anything through the site. I'm not sure what the laws are in the U.S., so PaulS might answer that.

abahoor, it's not only me who calls it stealing. H.H. Pope Shenouda clearly calls it stealing. Priests and servants who do that work call it stealing. If you don't think it's stealing, take it up with the Pope Laughing

The verse from the Gospel still does not justify what you're saying. The preaching of the apostles had nothing to do with hymns of worship. Hymns are responses of the individual or a community in worship to God, so yes, they reflect the faith of the community, but they're not a form of preaching.

And yes, God gave us everything, even our creativity. But that, too, does not justify what you said about our creations as not being our possessions. That is actually an argument against human rights of owning property, whether physical or intellectual.

+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

abahoor

Posts: 353

Joined: Feb 14, 2004

Posted: Apr 16, 2007 - 12:43 PM

Biboboy wrote:

Christ is risen,
abahoor, it's not only me who calls it stealing. H.H. Pope Shenouda clearly calls it stealing. Priests and servants who do that work call it stealing. If you don't think it's stealing, take it up with the Pope.

well as i wrote before quoting PaulS, HH has not said anything. you can go back to it and read what i have written. Also please, include any actually real sources that back up what you said. and audio recording, a video one, a book.

Quote:

So wait, you’re denying the whole idea of having hymns in our liturgies and all of our services as part of our worship to God that reflects preaching. Also you’re telling me that you, as a deacon who chants hymns, don’t believe that hymns change people’s hearts and affect them spiritually and sometimes change their beliefes.
WOW Biboboy…I thought you know a lot better than this especially about alhan. But I guess not.

Quote:

And yes, God gave us everything, even our creativity. But that, too, does not justify what you said about our creations as not being our possessions. That is actually an argument against human rights of owning property, whether physical or intellectual.

NOOOOO, that doesn't have to do anything with human rights and owning property. Am talking about God and us, His people, not other who don't believe Him but us who know the truth and follow it.

mzaki

Posts: 210

Joined: Apr 09, 2003
Location: Troy, MI

Posted: Apr 16, 2007 - 01:34 PM

P=,=c aftwnf

I have shared this view here before:

The church ought to serve the members of the body freely, without prejudice or preference, and without expecting compensation. The members ought to support the church freely, out of commitment and, more importantly, love.

In my humble opinion, this Apostolic model of how the church should "do business" with her congregants is not overly-idealistic, and is still universally applicable. This supersedes any concept of "copyright" that may have been later introduced.

qen oume;myi aftwnf

Albair

Posts: 107

Joined: May 15, 2003

Posted: Apr 16, 2007 - 02:38 PM

I didn't want to reply to this copyright issues, but I will just state my own point of view here.
To me, I would love to spread all hymns for free to everyone. The only problem is that it costs a lot to do this:
1- Finding rare hymns sometimes cost money (I don't prefer to go into details)
2- Getting cantors and some priests to record costs "a lot" of mone
3- Recording at the studio costs money
4- Making copies of CD/DVD costs money
5- Recording Episodes for Aghapy costs money
6- Giving sample gifts of the productions to certain people like some bishops and sometimes the pope costs money
7- Encouraging the choir and having activities together costs money

I don't know the exact numbers now, but so far, we have paid more than $50,000 on preservig hymns.
Which church can afford to keep going without having some sort of income to help with all these expenses?
It is just fair to help the service by buying the products and not copying them, even if there is no copyright. It should be out of love to the service. Otherwise, we will not be able to continue!!

God bless,

_________________
Albair Mikhaiel
HCOC Servant

+ To Protect and Preserve +

geomekhaiel

Posts: 1726

Joined: Aug 05, 2003
Location: Saint George COC

Posted: Apr 16, 2007 - 03:31 PM

Albair,

One question for you...or anyone else:

If it costs soooo much money to produce hymns then why does the church do it? My personal oppion is that on judgment day when God sees that that $50,000 was spent on hymns (which is soooooooooo much money) he will not be pleased because this same $50,000 could have been used in a better way.

More questions:

Doesn't Ibrahim Ayad get money from the church for his service? Seeing that he is a full time deacon one would expect that he does. Therefore, why does he care so much about the extra money that comes from his recordings? I would assume that the church can provide for him pretty well. The Coptic church is not that poor to the point were it cannot provide for it's prized deacon.

Another thing about $50,000 dollars for hymns production:

Why is it done to that extent? I think that the HICS recordings, mllm farag, mllm tawfiq, mllm ibrahim ayad, mllm gad, mllm mikhail and all the others are more then enough. (Don't get me wrong, i love the HCOC recordings and all) but how much are they really needed? Is it possibly a pride thing were we have to make a big choir out of ourselves and make cds and spend $50,000? Is it a chance for some deacons to make a name for themselves?

I don't know...

What i do:

I LOVE HYMNS! I do.... but I have come to realize that hymns are not the essence of Christianity, Christ is. My foc taught me to stop serving the House of the Lord, but to start serving the Lord of the House.

one more side point:

I wonder if the original composers of the hymns were to hear that they are being sold for...I wonder what they would think. I didn't know that Ibrahim Ayad wrote the hymns....I thought he just learned them and passed them down. Isn't that what a mllm does? Then why should he get paid for them? He should only get paid for his rank...but not for selling hymns takes...

just my thoughts....

....think about it...

Sorry if I offended….not what I was trying to do…

George Mekhaiel

abahoor

Posts: 353

Joined: Feb 14, 2004

Posted: Apr 16, 2007 - 03:56 PM

Albair wrote: