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pavly
Posts: 331
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Location: St-Mark Montreal, Canada
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Dec 12, 2007 - 09:32 PM |
 
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Hello all, a question that came through my mind and haven't found an answer:
Why would Zacharias be made mute by the angel Gabriel after announcing the birth of St John. Did he really doubt that it would happen?
If we read Luke 1:18 for Zacharias' answer and compare it with Luke 1:34 for the Virgin Mary's questioning about giving birth to Christ, I feel they're quite similar questionings...
What do you guys think??
Pavly |
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jydeacon
Posts: 145
Joined: Jan 16, 2007
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Dec 12, 2007 - 09:36 PM |
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I think it happened to Zacharias more or less because he was a priest and served God all the time and new that all things were possible with God. and really refused to believe that it was possible. St. Mary was still a young girl and of course it really made no sense for her to be able to concieve a child without knowing a man. Hopefully i helped a little bit, i would love to hear others opinions on this |
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Peter
Posts: 428
Joined: Mar 18, 2003
Location: Jersey City, NJ
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Dec 12, 2007 - 11:09 PM |
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Because there was precedents of an older barren women giving birth to children and as a priest he would have known about these. So he questioning was a distinct lack of faith on his part.
On the other hand what the angel had told St. Mary had never occurred before and her questioning was natural.
Another example of this sort of distinction is when God told Abraham that Sarah would bear a son, Isaac. Both Abraham and Sarah laughed, in two different instances but nothing occurred to them because prior to them this was unheard of, so their initial skepticism was not punished like Zachariah. |
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bigpun230
Posts: 38
Joined: Dec 22, 2006
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Dec 13, 2007 - 12:54 AM |
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pete took the answer out of my mouth, couldnt have said it better, wonder why?? |
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exGreek
Posts: 1381
Joined: Oct 27, 2004
Location: Spring Lake, Michigan
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Dec 13, 2007 - 10:35 AM |
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There are many verses that point to how the tongue can steer us in the wrong direction. That it is a strong force like a rudder. There's a verse in Proverbs to the effect that "whatever a man sayeth, thus it is". In other words, pointing to an almost magical and creative effect of the tongue. After all, God spoke and the universe came into being....and we are made in the image of God.
Forgive me for not being as precise as one should. But I think the general idea is that St. Gabriel saw Zacharias' tendency to say the wrong things with his tongue, and in order to protect his own good, made him unable to speak his proverbial rudder from steering him in dangerous directions. |
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Peter
Posts: 428
Joined: Mar 18, 2003
Location: Jersey City, NJ
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Dec 13, 2007 - 04:31 PM |
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| bigpun230 wrote: |
| pete took the answer out of my mouth, couldnt have said it better, wonder why?? |
Were you, one of the multitude of sunday school kids I tormented?
Peter Fam |
_________________
“While the theologians are searching these abstruse
matters, many simple-souls will have slipped into the
Kingdom of God” - H.H. Pope Shenouda III
"If you wish to be a theologian then follow the commandments." - St. Gregory Nanzianus |
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pavly
Posts: 331
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Location: St-Mark Montreal, Canada
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Dec 14, 2007 - 09:00 AM |
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So Peter, you're saying the Virgin Mary didn't know God was capable of getting her pregnant while still remaining a virgin? I'm just supposing...
Is it possible that Zacharias didn't doubt about God's power but rather that he didn't trust that God would perform that miracle to him? I mean, we often ask God about things, and when it comes time to receive them from Him, we tend to overlook or be blind to it...no?
Again, I'm just wondering about these...
Pavly |
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bigpun230
Posts: 38
Joined: Dec 22, 2006
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Dec 14, 2007 - 03:13 PM |
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| Peter wrote: |
Were you, one of the multitude of sunday school kids I tormented?
Peter Fam |
one of them, hahahaha, i was ur main victim |
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Peter
Posts: 428
Joined: Mar 18, 2003
Location: Jersey City, NJ
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Dec 16, 2007 - 11:42 AM |
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| pavly wrote: |
So Peter, you're saying the Virgin Mary didn't know God was capable of getting her pregnant while still remaining a virgin? I'm just supposing...
Is it possible that Zacharias didn't doubt about God's power but rather that he didn't trust that God would perform that miracle to him? I mean, we often ask God about things, and when it comes time to receive them from Him, we tend to overlook or be blind to it...no?
Again, I'm just wondering about these...
Pavly |
On an intellectual level she knew God was capable of doing anything but I believe since she had never heard of such a thing so it caught her off guard and combined with the factor that it was her who was selected, would lead anyone to question.
As for Zacharias, it could be as you say but either way ultimately it boils down to a lack of faith, whether it was possibly or that it would accur to him.
P.S. BigPun whats your name? |
_________________
“While the theologians are searching these abstruse
matters, many simple-souls will have slipped into the
Kingdom of God” - H.H. Pope Shenouda III
"If you wish to be a theologian then follow the commandments." - St. Gregory Nanzianus |
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pavly
Posts: 331
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Location: St-Mark Montreal, Canada
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Dec 16, 2007 - 03:46 PM |
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Let me ask another "but"...
If we look at what the angel said to Zacharias, I feel it shows the opposite:
"But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard (Luke 1:13)
If his prayer is heard, it means he was praying and probably he was still praying in his old age...if he didn't have faith, I think he would've stopped praying a long time ago and the angel wouldn't have made reference to it...
I seem to be arguing that it's not about faith, but it's just that I want to go deeper and understand what might have gone through Zacharias' mind: if it really was out of lack of faith.
As Peter said, he was a priest so he was expected to know that God was capable of letting a barren woman become pregnant. I don't think he didn't know this: I'm sure he knew about Sarah with Isaac, Hannah with Samuel, Rachel with Joseph...
What do you think? |
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meenas
Posts: 135
Joined: Jul 24, 2003
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Dec 18, 2007 - 02:27 AM |
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Peace
I think that although Zackariah and the Theotokos' questions were both the same, the intent behind them was different. While Zackariah may have doubted and muteness was his chastisement of love (as exGreek pointed out), the Holy Virgin asked the question out of a concern for her purity and her consecration to God. This unshakable faith allowed her, a modest little girl, to question a mighty archangel. Incredibly strong girl she must've been. Hence, the archangel responded by explaining how the Holy One will be born of her, i.e. by the descent of the Holy Spirit and His purification.
And besides, the archangel Gabriel, with all his 'gabr', was essentially delivering a message to his queen! I don't think he had any power to do as he did to poor old Zackariah. haha |
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jshouk
Posts: 30
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
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Dec 19, 2007 - 04:10 PM |
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(Origen)
When the priest Zechariah offers incense in the temple, he is condemned to silence and cannot speak until the birth of his son John. What does this mean? Zechariah's silence is the silence of prophets in the people of Israel. God no longer speaks to tehm. His " word, which was with the Father from the beginning, and was God," has passed over to us. For us Christ is not silent...
Christ ceased to be in them. the Word deserted them. What Isiaih wrote was fullfilled: " the daughter of Zion will be deserted like a tent in the vineyard or like a hut in the cucumber patch. She is as desolate as a plundered city" The Jews were left behind, and salvation passed to the Gentiles. |
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