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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 353
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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 Posted:
Feb 26, 2008 - 03:18 PM |
 
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PLEASE, YOUR THOUGHTS>>> |
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Last edited by Truth.Seeker on Mar 09, 2008 - 03:11 PM; edited 4 times in total |
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PeterA
Posts: 117
Joined: Oct 06, 2005
Location: Mississauga, Canada
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Feb 26, 2008 - 08:39 PM |
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Aghape
perhaps you can articulate your premise into a more condensed form so that you can get replies  ...its evident that Egyptians don't like to read or don't have the time. .. |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 353
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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Feb 26, 2008 - 08:54 PM |
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I think my comprehensive/condensed balance didn't work out too well. |
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Last edited by Truth.Seeker on Mar 09, 2008 - 03:11 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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lowlyman
Posts: 225
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
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Feb 27, 2008 - 10:02 AM |
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I am all for the condensed version. Just a few comments on a point or two you made above. Re: how much “non-faith” related things God directly does in our lives;
if I'm not mistaken, the Bible clearly states that God cares for all our needs. Jesus gave us the example of the two birds, our hair, and the flowers of the field .
Re: your other point on "all things work for the good to those who love God"; I agree with his Holiness and the rest of the community that all things really means all things!
Our Lord blessings
| Truth.Seeker wrote: |
| PeterA wrote: |
Aghape
perhaps you can articulate your premise into a more condensed form so that you can get replies ...its evident that Egyptians don't like to read or don't have the time. .. |
Haha, I must agree with you. I think my comprehensive/condensed balance didn't work out too well.
ALL, if you think the original post is too long, just start reading from Romans 8, I will bold "Romans 8" in the original post, so you can easily find it. Thank you. |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 353
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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| Posted:
Feb 27, 2008 - 10:45 AM |
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In an attempt to edit my post, it all got erased. |
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Last edited by Truth.Seeker on Mar 09, 2008 - 03:13 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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jydeacon
Posts: 137
Joined: Jan 16, 2007
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Feb 27, 2008 - 11:51 AM |
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You have brought up a great question. I would just like to add something i have been thinking about. God does not interfere in our lives unless we ask him too(to a certain extent that is) i mean we are living through his grace and his permission. we can't keep ourselves alive without his help. but i think thats nit picking a bit. but in general i don't believe he "interferes" in our lives or puts his will on us unless we ask him too. Great question/topic, i'd love to see others response on this |
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lowlyman
Posts: 225
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
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Feb 27, 2008 - 01:19 PM |
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This would be a great discussion for the desert's father. In your role you can be St. John Cassian! Unfortunately, I am not a desert father. But I do the best I can!
My take on Romans verse eight is that all things, good and bad, works for the good. Not all things are good.
Regarding your Harvard example above. Getting accepted into Harvard or not is due to the applicants actions which influenced the admission committee, and not God whispering in the admission committees ear. In my mind, the decision itself whether positive or negative is conformant to God's will. It is true that the admission committee took that decision and that they may have their own motivations for it. However at the same time God must have permitted it to happen. In my opinion, every action we take or every word we speak, or every thought we contemplate have consequences. For example if I were to bad mouth the chair of the reviewing committee, i ruined my chances.
Now as to the question of whether God is involved or not. I think he is involved either through his justice or his mercy. For God's justice deems that a person reaps the rewards of his hard work. Similarly, when I sin, I must pay the penalty of sinning to the devil or I must repent.
[ Ote. ="Truth.Seeker"]Hey lowlyman (I feel so wrong calling someone this, but I guess you chose that name! haha)
You bring up some good points, I've thought about them before. Here are my thoughts:
In context, Christ was chastising people for caring too much about materialistic things, i.e. if I can take care of the birds, I'll take care of you. Then He said that we should worry about our salvation, and He'll provide us with the other stuff.
My thoughts were that: if in fact, someone just worries about his salvation only, i.e. "go and sell everything and follow Him," then God will help that person. I always interpreted this verse as God taking care of those who don't take care of themselves because they are following Him.
For example, if you go and sell everything and follow Him, you have nothing left, not even bread to eat, or money to buy bread, in that case He'll directly get involved (e.g. crows bringing bread to the saints out in the desert).
Let's say I'm wrong, and God gets directly involved in "everything," can you give me your thoughts on the free will questions I posted above? Clearly if God sends someone some bread from heaven, there's no free will issues, but we don't see this happening often. WHO brings people the bread? Did they have a say in the matter? Etc...
About the Romans 8 verse, your take is an interesting one. My take on it was different (more importantly, the Pope looks at it in a different way too). According to the Pope, the point of "all things" is that "in totality, everything will result in good." In other words, although some things may be "bad" for us, i.e. getting flogged, everything combined is always good. That's different from your take, which is that "all things are good," in that, every single thing is "good."[/quote] |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 353
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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Feb 27, 2008 - 02:25 PM |
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| lowlyman wrote: |
My take on Romans verse eight is that all things, good and bad, works for the good. Not all things are good.
Regarding your Harvard example above. Getting accepted into Harvard or not is due to the applicants actions which influenced the admission committee, and not God whispering in the admission committees ear. In my mind, the decision itself whether positive or negative is conformant to God's will. It is true that the admission committee took that decision and that they may have their own motivations for it. However at the same time God must have permitted it to happen. In my opinion, every action we take or every word we speak, or every thought we contemplate have consequences. For example if I were to bad mouth the chair of the reviewing committee, i ruined my chances.
Now as to the question of whether God is involved or not. I think he is involved either through his justice or his mercy. For God's justice deems that a person reaps the rewards of his hard work. Similarly, when I sin, I must pay the penalty of sinning to the devil or I must repent.
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God permits everything to happen, but that doesn't mean everything that happens is according to His will. His will is "what He wants to happen," and He does not always do what He wants to happen. In the "uncondensed" version of my original post, I discuss this.
The simplest example is as we say in the liturgy - "For you are God the merciful, who does not wish the death of the sinner, but that he returns and lives." Clearly God wants all sinners to return, but He doesn't make it happen. He also permits us to sin, but that doesn't mean we sin according to His will.
You said that God is involved through His justice and mercy and that we reap what we sow. What exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean it in the Harvard case, I.e. if you studied and got good grades, you'll reap the benefits - getting in? If so, how was God involved in this? Did He make you study? Did He make you apply, etc...
Or did you mean we reap spiritual benefits from what we do. In that case (also in the "uncondensed" version of my original post), this is faith-related (I also went through this in the uncondensed version). |
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lowlyman
Posts: 225
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
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Feb 28, 2008 - 05:46 AM |
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[quote="Truth.Seeker"]
| lowlyman wrote: |
God permits everything to happen, but that doesn't mean everything that happens is according to His will. His will is "what He wants to happen," and He does not always do what He wants to happen. In the "uncondensed" version of my original post, I discuss this.
The simplest example is as we say in the liturgy - "For you are God the merciful, who does not wish the death of the sinner, but that he returns and lives." Clearly God wants all sinners to return, but He doesn't make it happen. He also permits us to sin, but that doesn't mean we sin according to His will.
>> I agree with everything that you have said so far with one exception. Although our actions may not be according to God's will, the outcome or consequences are according to God's will. Clear enough?
You said that God is involved through His justice and mercy and that we reap what we sow. What exactly do you mean by that?
>> I mean that our actions have full consequences in accordance with God's law. His justice dictates that certain things occur as a result of our actions. Therefore, these undesirable things resulting from our actions are also according to his will, for God's justice demands them. Note that it is our will that triggered those consequences, but the outcome is according to his will. (Even though he did not will them)
Do you mean it in the Harvard case, I.e. if you studied and got good grades, you'll reap the benefits - getting in?
>> I meant that our actions dictate whether we get accepted to Harvard or not. There are other factors that come into it, however the over all outcome is according to God's Will.
If so, how was God involved in this? Did He make you study? Did He make you apply, etc...
>> God may have been involved through various means. For example if your mother suggested that you should study harder and you obeyed her in order to keep his commandment, then you behaved according to his will and helped your chances
Or did you mean we reap spiritual benefits from what we do. In that case (also in the "uncondensed" version of my original post), this is faith-related (I also went through this in the uncondensed version).
>> I disagree with you. This is not only limited to the spiritual.
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 353
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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Feb 28, 2008 - 07:47 AM |
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I guess this can't be verified one way or the other. It's possible. Let me re-think about this possibility and give a more ellaborate answer later... |
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Last edited by Truth.Seeker on Mar 09, 2008 - 03:14 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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David_the_King
Posts: 835
Joined: Nov 04, 2002
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony COC Norco, California
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Feb 28, 2008 - 09:28 AM |
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Sometimes, when I do something good, and someone says thank you to me, I say no it was from God. Whenever something good happens, people often say "na3mit rabina." Often times I wonder, is it all from God, or do we do it since we have free will? I do not want to take ANY credit from God, but sometimes I think that maybe it was of my own free will.
The same goes with bad. If I do something bad, then no its human nature. It is wrong to blame the devil, even though he most likely had a hand in it.
With things like this, what is the answer? |
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AMoussa01
Posts: 506
Joined: Jan 08, 2007
Location: St. George and St. Joseph in San Jose California
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| Posted:
Feb 28, 2008 - 10:46 AM |
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I think that its important to think that if we do a good deed than all the glory goes to God himself. Yes we do have a free will to do these good deeds but it is not to seek glory for ourselves, rather we are trying to humble ourselves just as John the baptist himself did. "He must increase and I must decrease." Do not think that you will not be rewarded for your good deeds, of course God is just and loving, but it is very important to not parade yourself, claiming to be the one who deserves this glory. Of course im not saying that you do this, but what i am saying is that we do not deserve anything that God has given us; and trying to live up to His will is the least we can do. I hope this helped
Glory be to Him!
Tony |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 353
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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| Posted:
Feb 28, 2008 - 10:50 AM |
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That's a very intuitive question. I'm wondering if you read the uncondensed version of my post? It shows my thoughts on your question (if you look at it hard enough). Let me summarize what I think and add to what I posted originally:
1) All things that are "good" are from God.
2) All things that are "bad" are from the devil.
3) In either case, whatever we do, it's up to us.
In my original post I quote Christ's parable of the sower. It's pretty clear, so I didn't post Christ's explanation of it, but I think it helps if I post that here for my answer:
Mark 4:
13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”
Before I go further let me just point out that what is "good" is only "good" because God told us it's good. A couple of weeks ago I was arguing with someone who said that what is "good" is independent of God, otherwise God is not praiseworthy. I adamantly opposed that thinking because it didn't make sense. The other person was saying that there are "universal truths" independent of God.
His #1 contention was that if God "changes His mind" and says "murder is fine," then murder would become fine, which is something we know "can't be right." I told him that's ridiculous because God is all-knowing, He would know that He's going to "change His mind," and would therefore never make the wrong "decision" to begin with. I flipped the question on its head and asked "what if humans change their mind about murder," does it become fine? (Note: it's logically possible for humans to do this).
Then I asked him if "universal truths" are independent of God and humans, where do they come from? Irrational animals?
(Two weeks later, he still hasn't replied).
Sorry, I know that was a long "tangent," but I think it goes to the heart of my point...
Since our notions of "what's good" comes from God, and it is Satan that comes and takes that away by tempting us, (and then us listening to him), then whenever we do good, it's because of God, whenever we do bad it's because of Satan. And in either case it's due to how we respond to either.
Let me point out Mark 4: 25 For whoever has, to him more will be given; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him." Christ is talking about those who listen to Him vs. those who listen to satan. The more we listen to God the more "good" we'll do, the more we listen to satan the more "bad" we'll do.
Why do atheists still do "good," i.e. giving to charity is something "good." I would argue that since we are all created in God's image, part of that image is in is no matter how "bad," we get, so that even those who don't believe can do something that is good. Note also that this would have to be the case, otherwise some people would never be able to repent (because they have no goodness left in them). More authoritatively, Christ said we'll never get tempted more than we can handle (i.e. He'll keep the devil in check). And of course if there's "no good" left in anyone, then that person cannot fight any temptation off. |
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David_the_King
Posts: 835
Joined: Nov 04, 2002
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony COC Norco, California
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| Posted:
Feb 28, 2008 - 06:44 PM |
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As you have stated, God teaches us how to be good and the devil teaches is, in a sense, how to be bad. Us choosing good is still OUR decision because no one forced us, not even God, to make this decision. Yes, as Christians, we have inherited this goodness from God. It is a fruit of the spirit as it says in Galatians Chapter 5. But it is OUR fruits, not God's, right? So basically I am kind of re-asking my question. If we do something good, we learn it from God and we got it from Him, but WE in our selves, are the ones making this decision, right?
Well, another point to that is couldn't it be totally God. Maybe it is the work of the Holy Spirit working inside of us that makes us do it. To me, my conscience is the Holy Spirit. If my conscience makes the decision, then wouldn't it be the Holy Spirit that actual makes it for us?
Just a thought. |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 353
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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| Posted:
Feb 28, 2008 - 09:20 PM |
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His Holiness has spoke directly on the subject of conscience and said that our conscience is NOT the Holy Spirit. This seems to me to be the sound answer since everyone has a conscience, Christian and non-Christian alike.
Quote from His Holiness:
"Question:
Is conscience God's voice?
Answer:
No, conscience is not God's voice, because conscience
often errs whereas God's voice never does.
The best evidence of this is found in the words of the Lord
Christ to His disciples, for He said to them, "They will put
you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that
whoever kills you will think that he offers God service."
(John 16:2). Of course such conscience which considers
killing the disciples is a worship offered to God can never
be God's voice. This is just an example of many other
cases.
...
Some people mix up between conscience and the Holy
Spirit.
God's voice within a person is the voice of God's Spirit
working within him and thus it cannot err. On the other
hand, conscience can be mistaken; for sometimes a person
gets enthusiastic to do something and his conscience
irritates him for not doing it while God's Spirit is in fact
not pleased by such action."
For Christians, I would say it's conscience + Holy Spirit. In other words, the Holy Spirit stirs up our conscience, and then we make a decision.
We are absolutely the ones making the decision. If we are not making that decision, then God is basically choosing who's going to be saved. I.e. because our faith is shown by our works (James), if God just does things through us, but not according to our will, then He is just choosing who will go to heaven. This is a very Calvinist idea, not a Coptic/Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/pretty much any Christian domination other than Calvinism idea.
The Holy Spirit and our will "work together." Going back to my original post, I think it works like this:
1) There's a general calling to everyone to believe in God (note that according to Romans I, people KNOW God exists just by taking a look around). I think this is the general call.
2) If we decide to ignore God, that is absolutely up to us, and He will "leave us alone." At that point, the devil will come in and tempt us, and we will decide to be bad. In other words, God won't "help us" be good because we've already decided we don't care what He wants. He's not going to push us to be good.
3) If we decide to follow God, He will help us more in our temptations. So, when the devil tempts us, the Holy Spirit will stir us up. But, even at that point, we have the choice of whether to listen to the Holy Spirit or listen to the devil. That is why some very religious people stop believing, because they always have that option. |
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David_the_King
Posts: 835
Joined: Nov 04, 2002
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony COC Norco, California
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| Posted:
Feb 29, 2008 - 01:00 AM |
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Absolutely perfect answer! Thank you! I get it a little better now. |
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