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hany58
Posts: 178
Joined: Mar 20, 2007
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 Posted:
Mar 11, 2008 - 01:38 AM |
 
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Hi All,
I have been asked by someone to find an example in the bible of an intercession of a departed saint, could you please help me with that?
thanks
hany |
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mgeorge
Posts: 329
Joined: Oct 31, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 11, 2008 - 03:58 AM |
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Psalms have lots of intercessions; things like "For the Sake of David thy Servant..." etc. |
_________________
Pray for me,
Moheb
"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" (Ephesians 4:13) AMEN.
"εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη" - ιησου χριστου |
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stefanos
Posts: 116
Joined: Nov 26, 2003
Location: Michigan
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Mar 11, 2008 - 06:51 AM |
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Probably the best example from the Bible of the intercessions and prayers of the departed is from the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31). We see Abraham being asked to intercede and the departed Lazarus interceding on behalf of his family.
Also, in Rev. 5:8 and 8:3-4 it mentions the incense as the prayers of the saints.
Finally, on a similar note we see the works of relics of the departed saints as well in the story 2 Kings 13:20 with the departed body of Elisha.
Hope this helps. Pray for me.
stefanos |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 432
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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Mar 11, 2008 - 12:47 PM |
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I'm not so sure the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man (Luke 16:19-31) is an example of pysically dead saints interceding for us. In it, a sinner asks Abraham to go tell his brothers to repent, but Abraham says if they won't believe Moses, they won't even believe someone who rises from the dead.
It seems like an extra "step" is required to conclude that Abraham intercedes for those who are alive (and I have a feeling Hany is discussing this with our Protestant brothers, who will be very fast to point this out).
I like Pope Shenouda's approach to the question of intercession (I will write A.S. next to my comments and H.H. next to His Holiness' words):
A.S.: Note - Pope Shenouda does use the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, but to show that the physically dead patriarch Abraham KNEW what the Rich Man received in his life (this goes to "2)" below...)
A.S. 1) Even St. Paul asked lay people to pray for him. How much more beneficial would it be for us to ask St. Paul to pray for us. (Establishes that we should ask saints for their prayers).
A.S. 2) Knowledge in heaven is even greater than knowledge on Earth. A.S. This is for the contention that, "well, St. Paul was asking people who were alive."
A.S. Pope Shenouda quotes several verses:
H.H.:
The Apostle Paul replies, saying: "For now we see in a mirror,
dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I
shall know just as I also am known" (1Cor.13: 12).
(b) The knowledge of the angels is shown clearly in the
Lord's words: "...there will be more joy in heaven over one
sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who
need no repentance" (Lk.15: 7).
This means that the news of the earth reaches the inhabitants
of heaven, whether the angels or the souls of the saints. They
know who repents and who needs repentance, and they rejoice
over the repentance of one sinner. Unless they know the news of the earth, how could they rejoice? (A.S. bolded it).
A.S. 3) Since we should ask Christians to pray for us and since physically dead saints have greater knowledge in Heaven than we who are still struggling have on Earth, then it's befitting to ask the Saints to intercede on our behalf.
(Everything in this post, with the exception of my disagreement with stefanos on how far the Lazarus story goes, is adapted from His Holiness' "Comparative Theology.") |
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mikokiko
Posts: 1027
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 11, 2008 - 01:36 PM |
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Abraham intercedes on behalf of the good people in Sodom and Gomorrah. |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 432
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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Mar 11, 2008 - 02:02 PM |
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(Abraham was alive. I think the original poster is interested in departed patriarchs/saints/etc...) |
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lowlyman
Posts: 242
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
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Mar 12, 2008 - 08:50 AM |
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How about this? taken from: http://www.forthelife.org/a9.htm
2 Maccabbees 15:12 Judas Maccabbees sees a vision of the departed Onias praying for the Jews, and Onias tells him the Prophet Jeremiah is also praying for them and appears to him and gives him a golden sword to conquer with.
| hany58 wrote: |
Hi All,
I have been asked by someone to find an example in the bible of an intercession of a departed saint, could you please help me with that?
thanks
hany |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 432
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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Mar 12, 2008 - 09:24 AM |
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lowlyman,
I think that's a great example. The only potential issue I see is that Protestants don't have Maccabbees in their Old Testament Canon. So, they would say that has no authority. I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm saying if Hany is speaking to an Orthodox/Catholic (who already believe in intercessions), it'd help make the point, but if he's speaking with a Protestant, the discussion will probably go off on a tangent about Maccabbees. In effect, Hany would have to first show that Maccabbees is canonical, then use it.
(I guess this post is more for Hany than for you, I'm just trying to flag arguments that he will encounter). |
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lowlyman
Posts: 242
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 12, 2008 - 09:52 AM |
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i appreciate the feedback still.
| Truth.Seeker wrote: |
lowlyman,
I think that's a great example. The only potential issue I see is that Protestants don't have Maccabbees in their Old Testament Canon. So, they would say that has no authority. I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm saying if Hany is speaking to an Orthodox/Catholic (who already believe in intercessions), it'd help make the point, but if he's speaking with a Protestant, the discussion will probably go off on a tangent about Maccabbees. In effect, Hany would have to first show that Maccabbees is canonical, then use it.
(I guess this post is more for Hany than for you, I'm just trying to flag arguments that he will encounter). |
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