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fbebawy
Posts: 117
Joined: Dec 16, 2003
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Apr 07, 2008 - 06:24 PM |
 
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Just a quick question about the weekdays of the Great Lent. During the selection of the lamb, is kierie eleyson chanted 41 times or is it silent in the Church during this? None of the books that I've seen comment about this either way.
Thanks.
Fady |
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AMoussa01
Posts: 535
Joined: Jan 08, 2007
Location: St. George and St. Joseph in San Jose California
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Apr 07, 2008 - 06:31 PM |
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I think ideally we should be chanting apinav shopy. I heard that the 41 kerie leysons were not originally chanted during the selection of the lamb. Instead cantors would say alel orban or apinav shopy, and since we are in lent, we ought to say apinav shopy because alel orban is reserved for feasts or annual days. However, things have changed over time and the 41 kerie leysons have now been implemented into the selection of the lamb and in my church we say it. Afterwards, if there is time; Apinav shopy can be said. Someone correct me if i am wrong.
GB
Tony |
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fbebawy
Posts: 117
Joined: Dec 16, 2003
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Apr 07, 2008 - 06:32 PM |
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While I'm at it here, I have additional question. During the distribution of communion in the weekdays of the Great Lent, Psalm 150 may be chanted in its melismatic introduction and then the remainder of the Psalm is chanted in the weekday Great Lent tune of "Teeheereenee Entaa Efnoutee" (The Peace of God). After this, when the madeeha is chanted such as "Blessed Are Those Who Have Mercy", what is the tune in which this is chanted: (a) the weekday Great Lent tune of "Teeheereenee Entaa Efnoutee" (The Peace of God) or (b) the weekend Great Lent tune of "Teenistia Nem Pee-eshleel" (Fasting & Prayer)?
If you could kindly include in your responses to these two questions the reference book or article that sites this rite, it would be very helpful.
Thanks so much.
Fady |
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jydeacon
Posts: 147
Joined: Jan 16, 2007
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Apr 07, 2008 - 06:44 PM |
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Niether of those is to be said, during weekday liturgies(i suppose the medeeha can be said) the Long Je efesmarout is to be said and then Pimairomi, if time allows the medeeha for the week or the general medeeha for lent can be said(in the tune of the Doxologies) |
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fbebawy
Posts: 117
Joined: Dec 16, 2003
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Apr 08, 2008 - 09:10 AM |
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Thanks Tony and Jydeacon,
I thank you for your responses. If anyone has differing views or understandings, I hope to hear from you. Moreover, could you and anyone else responding comment on whether or not their understanding of these rites are referenced in a book, article or the like. I am of the same opinion that the madiha in the weekdays should be in the teeheereenee tune, but in all the churches that I've gone to they are not and I really want to be able to site some written document as a reference to the rite.
Also, for some reason, I thought that the choosing of the lamb was done without any hymns chanted in the weekdays of the Great Lent --- from the response provided, it sounds like 41 kerie eleysons are ok though Apinav Shoopee is a more appropriate hymn to chant. (Perhaps I am thinking about the liturgy of Holy Thursday or the Night of the Apocalypse.)
Once again, I am looking for comments and, as importantly, if available, documented references. The Deacon's Service Books that I have seen are silent on these two points.
Thank you.
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jydeacon
Posts: 147
Joined: Jan 16, 2007
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Apr 08, 2008 - 09:33 AM |
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I've never heard that the medeeha's are to be said in the tune of tihireeni(are you thinking of Je Penyout the faster way?) Tihireeni is specific to the weekdays of lent and the medeehas are not said in this tune. (possibly for weekdays but i haven't read anything about this before) Holy Thursday i believe nothing is said in the selection of the lamb. The 41 kyrie eleison were never in the rite of chosing the lamb until recently(not recent like a few years but at least a century) Alel Korban is said on annual days and apinav shopi during fasts. do you have a source saying the medeehas are said in the tune of tihireeni? |
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AMoussa01
Posts: 535
Joined: Jan 08, 2007
Location: St. George and St. Joseph in San Jose California
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Apr 08, 2008 - 10:48 AM |
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If one had time to chant a medeha, than i think it would be appropriate to do it in the weekday tune, which is tehereny tune. I do not see how any other tune is appropriate.
GB
Tony |
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David_the_King
Posts: 846
Joined: Nov 04, 2002
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony COC Norco, California
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Apr 08, 2008 - 11:33 AM |
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The madeeha usually chanted during weekdays is 'Our Father who are in Heaven.' It is to be chanted in the weekday tune of 'tihireeny.'
And to answer the other question, it is 41 kirie eleysons because we end with the 12th hour agpeya and have yet to say the 41 kirie eleysons. Therefore the 41 kirie eleysons should be said. After this Apinav shopi is chanted before the priest says 'Glory and Honor.' |
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abahoor
Posts: 359
Joined: Feb 14, 2004
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Apr 08, 2008 - 12:19 PM |
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the madeha have one set tune. it sound like its close to the weekend tune, but not to me. |
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jydeacon
Posts: 147
Joined: Jan 16, 2007
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Apr 08, 2008 - 03:00 PM |
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Again i've never heard this before that the tune for a medeeha during the week would be that of tihirini, this makes no sense, medeehat don't change tunes like that. Do you guys have a source for these statements? |
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AMoussa01
Posts: 535
Joined: Jan 08, 2007
Location: St. George and St. Joseph in San Jose California
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Apr 08, 2008 - 03:35 PM |
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Its just common sense. I mean, what other tune would you use? It only makes sense to use the weekday tune for the weekdays.
GB
Tony |
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egyptianhomeboy
Posts: 791
Joined: Jul 28, 2003
Location: California
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Apr 08, 2008 - 03:37 PM |
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jydeaon,
It DOES make sense. In all seasons, the doxologies, gospel responses, and madaya7 share the same tune. Why would you keep the weekend tune for something said on the weekdays?
I understand the controversy of someone taking a madee7a from Sunday and chanting it on a weekday, but, if this is the case, it would only make sense to keep the weekday tune. |
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David_the_King
Posts: 846
Joined: Nov 04, 2002
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony COC Norco, California
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Apr 08, 2008 - 03:37 PM |
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Madayeh do NOT have specific tunes since they are not 'hymns' per se. They are songs that are thrown into communion to fill up time. It should be just psalm 150, je efesmarout (Long), and pimairomi. The medeeha would come after, and to stay consistent with the tune of the day, it would be chanted in the weekDAY tune. It is NOT said in the weekend tune of blessed are those (tubah). This is a joyous-type tune when chanted during weekends of lent. The hymn 'Our Father' is said in the weekday tune (the weekday doxology tune). This is observed in many churches this way. One would not say blessed are those or any of the weekend madeeha but a general one, either for the fraction or our father. |
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jydeacon
Posts: 147
Joined: Jan 16, 2007
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Apr 08, 2008 - 04:03 PM |
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David_the_King
Posts: 846
Joined: Nov 04, 2002
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony COC Norco, California
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Apr 08, 2008 - 04:12 PM |
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That is not the madeeha I am referring to. That is the doxology for weekdays being put on the pimairomi tune, since pimairomi is also the doxology. But this IS consistent with the tune of the day and therefore this is a logical/correct theory to use.
I am referring to the fraction madeeha (I believe it starts Moses fasted for forty days...) and the our father madeeha (which starts our father who art in heaven...then different words, then the next verse starts hollowed be thy glorious name, whom the cherobim and seraphim fear, etc. That madeeha would be in the tihireeny tune. |
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AMoussa01
Posts: 535
Joined: Jan 08, 2007
Location: St. George and St. Joseph in San Jose California
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Apr 08, 2008 - 04:13 PM |
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I do not see why you cant say it like that but i also do not see any thing wrong with chanting it like the weekday doxology tune. Of course, nowadays, it is much more practical to chant it in the doxology tune. Both ways are correct to me and if you know pimairomy, then go ahead and say it in that tune. Just dont bore everyone else by having them stand around while listening to only one deacon chanting...
GB
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egyptianhomeboy
Posts: 791
Joined: Jul 28, 2003
Location: California
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Apr 08, 2008 - 04:22 PM |
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Guys, there are just some things in our church that are not set in stone. There's a difference between right and wrong, and there's also a gray area. I think this falls in the gray area. This would also explain why some have not been able to find anything written on it; if someone were to say "This must be said..." then this individual would be confusing a lot of people. |
Last edited by egyptianhomeboy on Apr 08, 2008 - 05:10 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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David_the_King
Posts: 846
Joined: Nov 04, 2002
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony COC Norco, California
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Apr 08, 2008 - 04:26 PM |
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The madeeha that is the most recorded for lent is the concluding friday of lent (assoom assoom ya sha3by yasoo3). This is chanted in the blessed are those (weekend doxology tune) because the tunes for this day are the saturday/sunday tune. This makes sense to me, but doing this tune on a normal weekday does not make any sense to me, since blessed are those is the DOXOLOGY TUNE FOR WEEKENDS! lol |
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fbebawy
Posts: 117
Joined: Dec 16, 2003
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Apr 09, 2008 - 01:53 AM |
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I am glad that there has been some good responses here. Unfortunately though, there doesn't seem to be any references. I don't think this is a grey area. I think the reason that there is nothing documented that describes the tune is because, while on the one hand there is a rich and deep heritage of rites in our Church which is a very elaborate and logical system and goes into great detail, there's not, on the other hand, a follow-through to record and document elements of these rites. The Church has been living for so long passing things from one generation to the other orally, especially as it relates to Coptic hymns, that we have not yet caught up in documenting this "oral tradition".
Having said this, someone could come back with a reference book that clarifies this particular rite. |
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ophadeece
Posts: 122
Joined: Oct 01, 2007
Location: Newcastle, UK
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Apr 09, 2008 - 06:14 AM |
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Fbebawy,
I agree with you. We may never actually find any documents stating what should be sung, and what should not, especially that the muslims burnt down Alexandria library with all of the invaluable heritage our church had there, including of course the writings of all of our church fathers in first few centuries. In addition to that, and by virtue of not paying much respect to these books, psalmodies and kholagies were destroyed mainly because muslim occupation in Egypt asserted that no book should be written in the Coptic language should stay on the land of Egypt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Coptic essentially meaning Egyptian - Arabic shouldn't have belonged there at all anyway. And now we are asking for proofs and documents. I think the only thing you can teach your little deacons is to observe what is being done, and learn it, because rites were rendered verbally and manually without a great need for books. Or teach them to start writing up these documents. God bless your efforts.
Dear all,
I strongly agree with David_the_King here; I don't think melodies have any special tune per se; the relevant tune could be fitted on the words. But I strongly agree with jydeacon, melodies should only come after Je efsmarwot, and Bimairomi and as David_the_king said to fill up time; it doesn't sit right with me singing them in "blessed are those who have mercy" tune; this tune is specific to the Saturdays and Sundays.
News to me that abinav shobi should be sung with the consecration of the lamb, rather than the 41 kyrieleyson's. Following on from what David_the_king said, I think they should have been sung before presenting the lamb in the first place. Most probably (if not 100% true) as being lazy no one is bothered learning either abinav shobi, or alelorban to sing it during every Mass, and more so to teach the congregation; oh man, why should we burden the congregation with more Coptic hymns? Enough is enough.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot |
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abahoor
Posts: 359
Joined: Feb 14, 2004
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Apr 09, 2008 - 07:51 AM |
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well as always, khedmit shamas do not clearfy what to say and when to say madaieh...atleast not all the time. i guess that's why you see Ibrahim Ayad recording neknay o pa-Shois and ti-nesteya in pi-mayromi tune because it's normaly not long enough. |
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David_the_King
Posts: 846
Joined: Nov 04, 2002
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony COC Norco, California
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Apr 09, 2008 - 12:36 PM |
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My reference to the tune of the madeeha at the end is what we do all year long. On Palm Sunday, the madeeha is in the sha3neeny tune. On Feast of Epiphany, it is the same tune as the doxology. During Kiahk, efemepsha ghar half way through is the doxology tune. Feast of the Cross, its the sha3neeny tune again. During weekENDS of lent, it is said in the doxology tune. During weekDAYS shouldn't it be in the doxology tune also? I know many people chant it like this, saying the two madiaeh in the tihireeny tune, saying the fraction madeeha and the our father madeeha. This is where this is coming from. I was taught about this tune and that you are supposed to do this. |
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Hisservant
Posts: 22
Joined: Apr 09, 2008
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Apr 09, 2008 - 03:05 PM |
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Does anyone have a PDF of the Rites of Lent... or any season for that matter? |
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Je `aripameu`i `w pa{oic@ `aripameu`i `w paNou]@ `aripameu`i `w pa`Ouro@ aksan`i qen tekmet`ouro.
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abahoor
Posts: 359
Joined: Feb 14, 2004
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Apr 09, 2008 - 08:06 PM |
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| Hisservant wrote: |
| Does anyone have a PDF of the Rites of Lent... or any season for that matter? |
if you want that to check for a source, than there is no point. anything digital where things can easlly be edited shouldn't be the primary source...... |
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Hisservant
Posts: 22
Joined: Apr 09, 2008
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Apr 10, 2008 - 10:36 AM |
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| abahoor wrote: |
| Hisservant wrote: |
| Does anyone have a PDF of the Rites of Lent... or any season for that matter? |
if you want that to check for a source, than there is no point. anything digital where things can easlly be edited shouldn't be the primary source...... |
No it's not really about checking for a source, I just wanted something to have so that i know what to do, if like the southern Diocese has a book or H.G Bishop Mattheos wrote them down, anything like that even if I have to buy it, and you cant really edit PDF's, you can but it's tricky. why would someone edit it anyway? It is what it is.... |
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Je `aripameu`i `w pa{oic@ `aripameu`i `w paNou]@ `aripameu`i `w pa`Ouro@ aksan`i qen tekmet`ouro.
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