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CopticCrusader
Posts: 14
Joined: Apr 23, 2008
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Apr 23, 2008 - 07:40 PM |
 
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Hello,
There is a muslim kid (Palestinian, was born a Catholic, converted) in one of my classes (high school). And every day he tries to annoy me and speak arabic to me and i just dont feel comfortable speaking arabic with him. He also curses me, my family, and Christians in general (although the rest of his family are Christians) almost on a daily basis. I keep quiet and try to ignore him. I have tried to debate him at times regarding faith but it never goes anywhere (as you probably already know). And this kid is just a bad kid overall, he has done things that i cant say on this forum. He is a holocaust denier and he believes 9/11 was an inside job, hates Israel, etc...
I know that Jesus told us to love everybody, so i would like to try to convert him, or at least convince him that islam is wrong. Can anyone help me? |
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tonyhabibi
Posts: 1222
Joined: Apr 09, 2004
Location: IN THE back of your mind .navagating through your heart , resting in your soul .
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Apr 23, 2008 - 08:06 PM |
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look some of the things this guy says is not so far fetched , israel is not innocent , and there are some fishy things that went on in 9/11 ,
concerning islam there are so many ways u can refute islam easily .. heres an example , Ask the kid if he beleives god is a deciever ? .... he will obviously say no ....
then ask him why in his quran they say that God decieved the Jews and the romans by making them think they crucified jesus , but according to islam Allah made someone to appear like jesus on the cross . why would god want to decieve the people into thinking they killed jesus . why is god scared or shy or powerless as to not control a situation ?
They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God.” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)... (Quran, 4:157
"We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 432
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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Apr 23, 2008 - 08:39 PM |
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Suggesting the US government had anything to do with 9/11 is ridiculous and outrageous.
CopticCrusader,
Matthew 7:6 - “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces." Once you're dealing with dogs or swine, your duty to convince ends. |
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Overgrownegyptian
Ask me for help!
Posts: 245
Joined: Sep 23, 2003
Location: St. Mary and St. George COC [tallahassee, fl] l St. George COC [tampa, fl]
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Apr 23, 2008 - 11:59 PM |
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| Philippians 1:27 Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ… |
We are all called the 5th Gospel of Jesus Christ. We are told to live our lives as a testimony to His Word. Abouna Bishoy Kamel was a living Gospel. Everyday he would walk home and this little kid, who was muslim, would throw orange peels from his balcony on to Abouna as he passed by. This happened for quite a long time. Then one day Abouna Bishoy noticed the orange peels weren't being thrown at him, so he went to the little kids house to see what happened. He saw the little kid was sick so he went out and bought the little kid a huge basket of oranges and at that moment the kid and the parents repented and asked for Abouna's forgiveness. He lived his life taking joy in every insult. Another time Abouna Bishoy Kamel came home and muslim people would always spit on him. Tasoni was really upset and asked him why he wasn't upset. He responded, "Why should I be upset in this joy? I see this spit as the spit of Christ when the Jews spit on him." He took everything as a joy.
So this person might be insulting you but take it as a joy for the Jews insulted the LORD Himself. I know it's a very hard thing to do but try your hardest to fight the feeling of saying something back because that's what the devil is really trying to get to you.
Another thing is this: look at the positives of this situation. I am actually jealous, believe it or not, because you have an amazing virtue knocking at the door. The virtue is patience. If you endure with this person, whether they convert or not, and you endure through all the insults you will begin to feel the virtue of patience working in your life.
Do not look at the negatives and be upset if he insults you, but look at the positives that come from this situation.
May God bless you, please pray for me and my weaknesses. |
_________________
andrew
May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing to you, pleasing to you.
"O God, my God, I will rise up early unto You; for my soul has thirsted for You: to make my flesh blossom for You, in a barren land and a trackless and dry place." (Psalm 62:1)
"My son, give me your heart, And let your eyes observe my ways." (Proverbs 23:26)
"Every meeting with Christ is a prayer of renewal. Every prayer is an experience of faith. Every experience of faith is eternal life." Abouna Matta El-Meskeen
Administrator of copticamerica.org. Ask me for help! |
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lowlyman
Posts: 242
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
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Apr 24, 2008 - 09:53 AM |
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Overgrownegyptian
This story lifted up my spirit. Glory be to God in all things.
Truthseeker,
Good answer.
lowly
| Overgrownegyptian wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Philippians 1:27 Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ… |
We are all called the 5th Gospel of Jesus Christ. We are told to live our lives as a testimony to His Word. Abouna Bishoy Kamel was a living Gospel. Everyday he would walk home and this little kid, who was muslim, would throw orange peels from his balcony on to Abouna as he passed by. This happened for quite a long time. Then one day Abouna Bishoy noticed the orange peels weren't being thrown at him, so he went to the little kids house to see what happened. He saw the little kid was sick so he went out and bought the little kid a huge basket of oranges and at that moment the kid and the parents repented and asked for Abouna's forgiveness. He lived his life taking joy in every insult. Another time Abouna Bishoy Kamel came home and muslim people would always spit on him. Tasoni was really upset and asked him why he wasn't upset. He responded, "Why should I be upset in this joy? I see this spit as the spit of Christ when the Jews spit on him." He took everything as a joy.
So this person might be insulting you but take it as a joy for the Jews insulted the LORD Himself. I know it's a very hard thing to do but try your hardest to fight the feeling of saying something back because that's what the devil is really trying to get to you.
Another thing is this: look at the positives of this situation. I am actually jealous, believe it or not, because you have an amazing virtue knocking at the door. The virtue is patience. If you endure with this person, whether they convert or not, and you endure through all the insults you will begin to feel the virtue of patience working in your life.
Do not look at the negatives and be upset if he insults you, but look at the positives that come from this situation.
May God bless you, please pray for me and my weaknesses. |
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CopticCrusader
Posts: 14
Joined: Apr 23, 2008
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Apr 24, 2008 - 01:51 PM |
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| tonyhabibi wrote: |
concerning islam there are so many ways u can refute islam easily .. heres an example , Ask the kid if he beleives god is a deciever ? .... he will obviously say no ....
then ask him why in his quran they say that God decieved the Jews and the romans by making them think they crucified jesus , but according to islam Allah made someone to appear like jesus on the cross . why would god want to decieve the people into thinking they killed jesus . why is god scared or shy or powerless as to not control a situation ?
They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God.” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)... (Quran, 4:157
"We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. |
what if he just says that God only deceives the "infidels"?
thank you all for your comments and May God Bless all of you!! |
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Overgrownegyptian
Ask me for help!
Posts: 245
Joined: Sep 23, 2003
Location: St. Mary and St. George COC [tallahassee, fl] l St. George COC [tampa, fl]
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Apr 24, 2008 - 02:15 PM |
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| CopticCrusader wrote: |
what if he just says that God only deceives the "infidels"?
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You do not always have to argue with him. If he says you are deceived and Jesus Christ is a prophet and not God, then explain it to him once. If after that he keeps bothering you about it just say ok and keep silent. There is power in silence, look at the LORD Jesus Christ. He kept silent even amongst the false accusations.
You are living the life of our LORD Jesus Christ right now. When he insults you and says nasty things against you, take it joyfully. Explain his faults but in a loving way so as to God willing bring him to the faith again. If he does not wish to turn then that is his choice and he will deal with it on judgment day.
Pray for him for the LORD told us:
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But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you
-Matthew 5:43-44 |
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_________________
andrew
May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing to you, pleasing to you.
"O God, my God, I will rise up early unto You; for my soul has thirsted for You: to make my flesh blossom for You, in a barren land and a trackless and dry place." (Psalm 62:1)
"My son, give me your heart, And let your eyes observe my ways." (Proverbs 23:26)
"Every meeting with Christ is a prayer of renewal. Every prayer is an experience of faith. Every experience of faith is eternal life." Abouna Matta El-Meskeen
Administrator of copticamerica.org. Ask me for help! |
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CopticCrusader
Posts: 14
Joined: Apr 23, 2008
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Apr 24, 2008 - 02:21 PM |
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overgrownegyptian,
It just seems kind of difficult to tell him what he is doing wrong with out it turning into an argument.
And I have prayed for him a few times actually. I have prayed that God have mercy on him because I am sure that he has no idea what he is doing.
Pray for me! |
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Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner! |
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ophadeece
Posts: 123
Joined: Oct 01, 2007
Location: Newcastle, UK
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Apr 24, 2008 - 02:51 PM |
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Dear CopticCrusader,
I think you are doing very well by praying for him. Pray more, and not just few times, and pray for yourself as well that God give you peace and wisdom to deal with this situation in silence perfectly. I do agree strongly with the silence opinion of overgrownegyptian, and the wise advice given by Truth.Seeker. I don't think he will listen even if you try your hardest to convince him - not worth trying as far as my opinion is concerned. Keep praying please for both you and him. God bless you and direct you to what wisest and best... pray for us a lot |
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CopticCrusader
Posts: 14
Joined: Apr 23, 2008
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Apr 24, 2008 - 03:06 PM |
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Thanks a lot ophadeece, may the blessings of the Holy Pascha Week be with you! Pray for me and for him (muslim kid)! |
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Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner! |
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Noosa_1978
Posts: 231
Joined: Dec 13, 2006
Location: Jersey City, NJ
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Apr 27, 2008 - 08:44 PM |
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First of all, Happy Easter to all of you. I hope you all enjoyed the Church and then breaking the fast. I know I love this time of the year. Anyhow, that muslim kid needs alot of prayer because he is very confused. Also be nice to him and act Christian around him because then he will see that he made a huge mistake in his life. My mom, even though she was raised is a very strict Catholic home, became an agnostic while in college. She did it because she wanted to be liberated and a feminist. It is very hard to deal with her because she is stubborn and feels her way is right. It has gotten very hard at times to follow my faith. My mother has even called me a religious fanatic, who believes in bogus. Let me tell you, when I started going to the Coptic Church, 3 years ago and started studying about the faith, my mother was giving me a hard time. She even threatened to throw me out and disinherit me if I got baptized. She was pushing me to be like her. She even made me sleep on the street because I did not want to sign a petition that supported abortions. Anyhow, I told myself that my eternal life was more important than my inheritance and got baptized without my mom knowing. I feel so happy I did it. I do not even tell her I go to church because if she knew, she would not let me. She has even thrown away my pictures of saints in my room. However, I keep praying that one day she makes the right choice. I hope this young also makes the right choice too someday. |
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Noosa_1978
Posts: 231
Joined: Dec 13, 2006
Location: Jersey City, NJ
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Apr 27, 2008 - 08:44 PM |
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First of all, Happy Easter to all of you. I hope you all enjoyed the Church and then breaking the fast. I know I love this time of the year. Anyhow, that muslim kid needs alot of prayer because he is very confused. Also be nice to him and act Christian around him because then he will see that he made a huge mistake in his life. My mom, even though she was raised is a very strict Catholic home, became an agnostic while in college. She did it because she wanted to be liberated and a feminist. It is very hard to deal with her because she is stubborn and feels her way is right. It has gotten very hard at times to follow my faith. My mother has even called me a religious fanatic, who believes in bogus. Let me tell you, when I started going to the Coptic Church, 3 years ago and started studying about the faith, my mother was giving me a hard time. She even threatened to throw me out and disinherit me if I got baptized. She was pushing me to be like her. She even made me sleep on the street because I did not want to sign a petition that supported abortions. Anyhow, I told myself that my eternal life was more important than my inheritance and got baptized without my mom knowing. I feel so happy I did it. I do not even tell her I go to church because if she knew, she would not let me. She has even thrown away my pictures of saints in my room. However, I keep praying that one day she makes the right choice. I hope this young also makes the right choice too someday. |
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garywbush
Posts: 53
Joined: Aug 30, 2006
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Jun 01, 2008 - 12:39 AM |
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Assalam alaikum CopticCrusader.
You say he is a Palestinian-born Catholic who converted to Islam. What type of Islam? Shia (Jaafari) or Sunni (Hanafi)? |
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AnthonyXM
Posts: 25
Joined: May 25, 2008
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Jun 01, 2008 - 01:04 AM |
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Truthseeker is right CopticCrusader.
Answer his curses with a blessing - then think of him no more.
Do not wrestle with this person any longer. Let him pass from your mind.
God bless you |
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meeno
Posts: 40
Joined: Mar 26, 2005
Location: Princeton, NJ
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Jun 01, 2008 - 09:38 PM |
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| CopticCrusader wrote: |
Hello,
There is a muslim kid (Palestinian, was born a Catholic, converted) in one of my classes (high school). And every day he tries to annoy me and speak arabic to me and i just dont feel comfortable speaking arabic with him. He also curses me, my family, and Christians in general (although the rest of his family are Christians) almost on a daily basis. I keep quiet and try to ignore him. I have tried to debate him at times regarding faith but it never goes anywhere (as you probably already know). And this kid is just a bad kid overall, he has done things that i cant say on this forum. He is a holocaust denier and he believes 9/11 was an inside job, hates Israel, etc...
I know that Jesus told us to love everybody, so i would like to try to convert him, or at least convince him that islam is wrong. Can anyone help me? |
Islam is a religion started by a man who needed a way to gather an army and rule the world. Because it was a man-made religion, there are numerous flaws, and you'll notice most of their rules are made to suit Muhammed.
Anyway, if you want to make him think, ask him this question: the Quran teaches that the Bible/Torah is correct and not to dispute it. (Quran 5:68, 29:46). However, this cannot be, since the Quran contradicts the Jewish/Christian sources. Muslims get around this by saying that the Christians and Jews corrupted their books. This is impossible, as you'll see below.
We know from the Dead Sea Scrolls that the Torah (first five books of the Bible) we have today is the Torah we had at least 200 years BC. Thus, the Torah that was circulating around the time of Muhammed (about 800 years later) MUST have been the same, unaltered one. One can apply the same logic to the rest of the Bible as well - the Gospel that was going around in the 7th century is without any doubt the same one we have today. Thus, from a historical perspective, no alteration of the texts occurred. How can this be, since the Quran is the word of God? |
_________________
God Bless,
Mina |
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CopticCrusader
Posts: 14
Joined: Apr 23, 2008
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Jun 04, 2008 - 07:20 PM |
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| garywbush wrote: |
Assalam alaikum CopticCrusader.
You say he is a Palestinian-born Catholic who converted to Islam. What type of Islam? Shia (Jaafari) or Sunni (Hanafi)? |
he told me he was a sunni and he doesnt consider any other sect to be true muslims |
_________________
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner! |
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CopticPeachUK
Posts: 5
Joined: May 16, 2008
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Jul 02, 2008 - 12:02 AM |
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Ask this muslim kid that after being muslim, did it make him better or worse? as a human being??
if it made him better - great! Where is the proof of that?? It seems that he has really gone downhill.
If it made him worse - then surely his relationship with God should edify him? If its not edifying him, then its not beneficial. Its time wasting. |
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Noosa_1978
Posts: 231
Joined: Dec 13, 2006
Location: Jersey City, NJ
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Jul 03, 2008 - 11:11 AM |
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| CopticCrusader wrote: |
There is a muslim kid (Palestinian, was born a Catholic, converted) in one of my classes (high school). And every day he tries to annoy me and speak arabic to me and i just dont feel comfortable speaking arabic with him. He also curses me, my family, and Christians in general (although the rest of his family are Christians) almost on a daily basis. I keep quiet and try to ignore him. I have tried to debate him at times regarding faith but it never goes anywhere (as you probably already know). And this kid is just a bad kid overall, he has done things that i cant say on this forum. He is a holocaust denier and he believes 9/11 was an inside job, hates Israel, etc...
I know that Jesus told us to love everybody, so i would like to try to convert him, or at least convince him that islam is wrong. Can anyone help me? |
Jesus is the only person who can change others. Just be patient with this young man and keep pray. One of these days he will relize he made a huge mistake. God works in very in ways that none of us can analyze. Just leave it to God and he will come through. |
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epchois_nai_nan
Posts: 5
Joined: Jun 08, 2008
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Jul 04, 2008 - 02:03 AM |
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Hey CopticCrusader!
I think you are very right to be praying for this guy. From your description, it sounds like he's got a lot of problems of his own. If the rest of his family is Christian and he's converted to Islam, his home life was probably never too great, and it can't be much better now that he's deserted his parents religion. It sounds like he's just venting all his anger and insecurity onto someone who the Koran teaches as inferior.
That said, I really don't think theological/religious conversations are going to get far with him...but thats just my opinion.
God be with you! I'll remember you and him in my prayers 
Peace |
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mwiskandr
Posts: 4
Joined: Mar 21, 2006
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Jul 05, 2008 - 10:19 AM |
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It is fair to say that the things he's done in his life aren't relevant, and its safe to say that its hard to talk about religion with almost anyone...even other Copts! Politics and religion are two very touchy topics that everyone, especially in the U.S., has a problem talking about, its a skill to be able to hold that sort of discussion. If he is a true Muslim, then he comes from a fanatic cult, and not a religion, so keep that in mind. He comes from a religion that preaches hate, and not peace...violence first..just consider the fact that secular history records that Islam was initially spread by the sword, and is even until this day...so keep that in mind when speaking to him. Rather than showing him that Islam is not a religion but a violent cult, and one that does absolutely nothing for society (which is quite easy to prove)...show him how Christianity has a lot to offer...and show him that while Muslims stress the wrath and judgment of God, Christians emphasize the love and compassion that God has. Many people who are baptized are already hard headed, so how much more a Muslim...but nevertheless, God can change any persons heart. Regardless I would pray for him and let God do all of the work, all you are is the tool by which God gets to him. Oh and it would probably help to know why he left his original faith to begin with? |
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kmonib
Posts: 11
Joined: Nov 04, 2008
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Nov 04, 2008 - 01:56 PM |
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Greetings of peace,
I am Muslim, and an Egyptian American, and have recently sought to understand Coptic Christianity, theologically, spiritually, and in its present day context. I should mention that I have an interest in religions in general, and with regard to Christianity have always loved Eastern Orthodoxy most, especially for its mystical focus and the doctrine of theosis. In any case, I would to share a few ideas that I have gleamed from my study of Islam and Christianity.
Both Muslims and Christians are often unaware of the profound truths that are shared between them. The problem is that these truths are situated on a level far above the "average" believer's interests. Christ, according to the Quran, is a Prophet and Messenger of God; he is also said to be the "Word bequethed to Mary and spirit of God" ("kalimatan alqaha ila Maryam wa ruhun minhu"). Thus Christ is acknowledged in the Quran as the Word, the Logos, which St. John tells us was with God in the beginning. Islam does not, however, confine God's revelation to the human person of Jesus; rather God has revealed himself in every age and to every people. For Muslims, this "Divine descent" is the Quran itself. The Qur'an is the Word made book, just as Jesus is the Word made flesh. In this respect, Muhammad is to the Quran what the Virgin Mary is to Christ; both were receptacles for the Word of God. Here, the purity of the receptacle is all-important, since by it God's revelation is conveyed, and this explains the extreme significance of the virginity of the Theotokos and the unletteredness of the Prophet (an-nabi al'ummi).
Theologically, it is also interesting that Muslims have debated the nature of the Qur'an in the same way that Christians have sought to understand the nature of Christ. If God spoke the Quran and God is Eternal, then the Quran must be the eternal Word of God. However, the Quran descended in a particular moment in history. This begs the question as to whether the Quran is eternal or created, or both. I do not need to elaborate on the parallels with the nature of Christ, because I assume almost everyone on this forum is familiar with Christian theology.
The idea that God has revealed Himself more than once is obviously unacceptable to most Christians who interpret "I am the Truth, the Way, and Life" as referring to Christ's human incarnation two-thousand years ago amongst the Jews. However, if one were to understand these words as proceeding from Christ as the eternal Logos, then one can perhaps allow for other "descents" of the Logos which are also "the Truth, the Way, and the Life." Muslims are no less exclusive than Christians, specifically in the doctrine that the revelation of the Quran abrogates all previous revelations. Yet in Islam, there is much room for acknowledging the legitimacy of other religions, as in the verse of the Quran, "Indeed those who have faith, and the Jews, and Christians, and Sabeans, those who have believed in God and the Last Day, for them are gardens underneath which rivers flow..." and also "If it were not for God's protecting one people by another, many temples and monastaries, in which God's Name is mentioned often would have been destroyed. (...la huddimat sawami'u wa biya'un wa salawatun yudhkaru fiha ismu Allah kathiran). There are many such verses in the Quran.
Of course, Muslims will never accept the divinity of Christ, for in their mind this would be to undermine God's transcendence. The average Muslim also considers the doctrine of the trinity to be polytheism. Nor will most Christians understand the salvific power of the Islamic testament of faith "There is no god but God" (La ilaha illa Allah), since for Christians salvation is achieved only because God became man. Christianity is a path of Love centered on the Presence of Christ. Islam is a path of Knowledge centered on metaphysical Truth (There is no god but God).
What I have tried to present here is the idea that both Islam and Christianity have reasonable claims to the hearts of men. Both are profoundly similar at heart, and have produced men and women of sanctity and holiness. It is perhaps better for us, as Christians and Muslims, to plumb the spiritual depths of our own faiths, before attempting to convert others or malign the religion of others. Perhaps then, when the Spirit is born in us, can we be a light to others. And God knows best. Wa Allahu a'lam.
Wassalam,
Kareem |
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mikokiko
Posts: 1027
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Nov 04, 2008 - 11:41 PM |
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Thank you for your kind words, but allow me to critique some of your points. One grave error we must never EVER make, is to claim that the Logos, the Word of God, is impersonal. Once we make that mistake Christianity becomes vain. The Logos is personal, the Logos is a Who, not a What. A conscious rational being became Man (who is also a conscious rational being). The Logos was never an impersonal 'thing'. And this is where I think you've missed the point. Yes God the Father reveals His Reason in bits and pieces in nature, and in the Scriptures (and even in the truth statements of other religions as close in proximity as they are to the Logos, the Christ, the One Truth).
The fundamental, and most precious and endearing tenet of the Christian faith is not simply of the Revelation of the Logos. But of Healing, and of Alleviation. Christ did not come simply to show us something, like you said, we had the Scriptures for that, and He had already visited not so infrequently in the Old Testament, when God Himself became tangible to the prophets (through His Reason [the Logos]). This Healing, this Alleviation, could not be done by something impersonal, not even could it be done by God the Father Himself, or His Spirit, but by His revealed Eternal and Divine Logos in the flesh as one of us. No different.
He was born in Palestinian poverty, had best friends, ate, drank, slept, attended weddings, had a Mother to care for Him, was betrayed by His best friends, denied by another, tortured by the Israeli police, rejected by His own people, and executed shamefully as the worst criminal of all without a just cause, and yet He was the Anchor of the Universe. For forty days He went hungry in the wilderness, and yet it is He who feeds all flesh. He asked to drink, and yet it was He who is the fountain of Life, and the spring of Eternity.
He was laid naked on the cross, and yet it is He who clothes all. He did not have a place to rest His head, but He created the world for our shelter, with the sky as its ceiling, and the Sun as its light. While He was being slapped, He sustained the universe, and had the earth held in the palm of His hand. It is the Greatest Paradox of all time, that the Infinite God of Power, Glory and Majesty, became a Man of Poverty and suffering, for our sake, out of the abundance of His infinite Love.
And they thought that they could kill God Himself, the Prince of Life. But He tasted death with us, and after three days, as the incorruptible God and the Resurrection Himself, He rose from the dead, so that, having united humanity with His Divinity in His incarnation, we too were granted Eternal Life. For the Timeless entered our history, and the Inspatial was born in Bethlehem, Palestine, and the Immaterial became a Man.
In this paradox lies the mystery that the greater something is, the lower it can descend to help. For without the Eternal Logos' descension to our corrupted human nature, to become one with it and united with His, our corruption would never be healed. The dilemma of sin, that has so long plagued man, was being destroyed. The pride, that made him mistake himself for the I AM, the Self-Existent, made the I AM Himself, descend to become like Him, and endure a life of suffering, though He is the Joy of the Universe. For when the sinless God took the place of man on the Cross, AS the only Man without sin, we were healed. It is time for you my dearest friend, to accept the Holy Sacrifice God has granted you, for how great a loss will we face if we reject so glorious a salvation.
From the heights of heaven Christ descended for your sake, as if you were the only man that existed, to save you from the bondage of the enemy, and the corruption that has kept you away from perfection. Out of His benevolence, He took the unbearable pain that we at times have all experienced. If GOD, the Holy, the Master of all, did not become Man HIMSELF, Humanity, would have fallen into the endless pit of damnation forever, when we chose to set ourselves up as the Self-Existent ones. When it was in the Paradise we first chose to disobey Him, and obey our passions, making ourselves God, thinking that we could live away from the very source of Life. But where Life is not, Death reigns, and we fell. But now He has granted us all the opportunity to accept Him, and become free of the enmity.
A testimony to the truth of these statements are the countless prophecies, which the Jews, who do not agree with us, now hold in their Scriptures, and in our Old Testament. They literally paint for us a picture of Christ Himself.
So too put it simply, Christ isn't simply a 'form' of the Logos, He IS the Logos. The Logos became Man, and One Hypostasis of a United Essence of the Divine and Human Natures Unaltered. If so the Logos became FULLY incarnate and revealed in Christ, and so any truth we see is not only the Logos, but of Christ, for He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, as you correctly said. And having become Man, He has become the Salvation of Humanity, and emancipated her from the slavery of sin, and taken her to the meadows of eternity, and the palaces of freedom.
God Bless |
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mikokiko
Posts: 1027
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 04, 2008 - 11:42 PM |
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Thank you for your kind words, but allow me to critique some of your points. One grave error we must never EVER make, is to claim that the Logos, the Word of God, is impersonal. Once we make that mistake Christianity becomes vain. The Logos is personal, the Logos is a Who, not a What. A conscious rational being became Man (who is also a conscious rational being). The Logos was never an impersonal 'thing'. And this is where I think you've missed the point. Yes God the Father reveals His Reason in bits and pieces in nature, and in the Scriptures (and even in the truth statements of other religions as close in proximity as they are to the Logos, the Christ, the One Truth).
The fundamental, and most precious and endearing tenet of the Christian faith is not simply of the Revelation of the Logos. But of Healing, and of Alleviation. Christ did not come simply to show us something, like you said, we had the Scriptures for that, and He had already visited not so infrequently in the Old Testament, when God Himself became tangible to the prophets (through His Reason [the Logos]). This Healing, this Alleviation, could not be done by something impersonal, not even could it be done by God the Father Himself, or His Spirit, but by His revealed Eternal and Divine Logos in the flesh as one of us. No different.
He was born in Palestinian poverty, had best friends, ate, drank, slept, attended weddings, had a Mother to care for Him, was betrayed by His best friends, denied by another, tortured by the Israeli police, rejected by His own people, and executed shamefully as the worst criminal of all without a just cause, and yet He was the Anchor of the Universe. For forty days He went hungry in the wilderness, and yet it is He who feeds all flesh. He asked to drink, and yet it was He who is the fountain of Life, and the spring of Eternity.
He was laid naked on the cross, and yet it is He who clothes all. He did not have a place to rest His head, but He created the world for our shelter, with the sky as its ceiling, and the Sun as its light. While He was being slapped, He sustained the universe, and had the earth held in the palm of His hand. It is the Greatest Paradox of all time, that the Infinite God of Power, Glory and Majesty, became a Man of Poverty and suffering, for our sake, out of the abundance of His infinite Love.
And they thought that they could kill God Himself, the Prince of Life. But He tasted death with us, and after three days, as the incorruptible God and the Resurrection Himself, He rose from the dead, so that, having united humanity with His Divinity in His incarnation, we too were granted Eternal Life. For the Timeless entered our history, and the Inspatial was born in Bethlehem, Palestine, and the Immaterial became a Man.
In this paradox lies the mystery that the greater something is, the lower it can descend to help. For without the Eternal Logos' descension to our corrupted human nature, to become one with it and united with His, our corruption would never be healed. The dilemma of sin, that has so long plagued man, was being destroyed. The pride, that made him mistake himself for the I AM, the Self-Existent, made the I AM Himself, descend to become like Him, and endure a life of suffering, though He is the Joy of the Universe. For when the sinless God took the place of man on the Cross, AS the only Man without sin, we were healed. It is time for you my dearest friend, to accept the Holy Sacrifice God has granted you, for how great a loss will we face if we reject so glorious a salvation.
From the heights of heaven Christ descended for your sake, as if you were the only man that existed, to save you from the bondage of the enemy, and the corruption that has kept you away from perfection. Out of His benevolence, He took the unbearable pain that we at times have all experienced. If GOD, the Holy, the Master of all, did not become Man HIMSELF, Humanity, would have fallen into the endless pit of damnation forever, when we chose to set ourselves up as the Self-Existent ones. When it was in the Paradise we first chose to disobey Him, and obey our passions, making ourselves God, thinking that we could live away from the very source of Life. But where Life is not, Death reigns, and we fell. But now He has granted us all the opportunity to accept Him, and become free of the enmity.
A testimony to the truth of these statements are the countless prophecies, which the Jews, who do not agree with us, now hold in their Scriptures, and in our Old Testament. They literally paint for us a picture of Christ Himself.
So too put it simply, Christ isn't simply a 'form' of the Logos, He IS the Logos. The Logos became Man, and One Hypostasis of a United Essence of the Divine and Human Natures Unaltered. If so the Logos became FULLY incarnate and revealed in Christ, and so any truth we see is not only the Logos, but of Christ, for He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, as you correctly said. And having become Man, He has become the Salvation of Humanity, and emancipated her from the slavery of sin, and taken her to the meadows of eternity, and the palaces of freedom.
God Bless |
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kmonib
Posts: 11
Joined: Nov 04, 2008
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| Posted:
Nov 05, 2008 - 09:53 AM |
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Salam,
Mikokiko, thank you for your thoughtful reply. Christianity possesses a very nuanced theology and I am no expert in it. However, I would like to quote to you from a Professor of Orthodox theology, James Cutstinger, whom I admire much. The quote is rather long but also rather enlightening so I hope you will read it in its entirety:
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"For in the developed doctrine of the ecumenical councils, the true person of Christ, that is, the subject who thinks his thoughts, speaks his words, and is the agent of all his actions, is the eternal Word or Son of God, the second Person of the Trinity. Jesus Christ is not a man who was adopted by God, nor a man in whom God was the indwelling presence, nor an intermediate being created by God as the highest of creatures, nor again a composite being who was partly divine and partly human. Who Jesus is, is the divine Son, ‘of one essence with the Father’, ‘by whom all things were made’ (Nicene Creed).
Of all the gospels, John is the most emphatic in this regard, for the same Person who says of himself that he is the only way to the Father also says that ‘before Abraham was, I am’ (John
8:58), a passage whose very tenses undercut the identification of Christ with a strictly temporal set of saving facts. " |
On the other hand, Custinger understands that this doctrine does not necessarily limit this one Son:
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| "... it is a mistake to confuse the uniqueness of the only-begotten and eternal Son of God with the alleged singularity of his historical manifestation in first-century Palestine. Without denying that there is only one Son of God, or that he alone is the author of salvation, or that Jesus Christ is that Son, ...there are no Biblical or dogmatic grounds for supposing that this one Son has limited his saving work to his incarnate presence | | | |
Productions
