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GraceM

Posts: 8

Joined: Jul 22, 2007

Posted: May 12, 2008 - 02:59 AM

Hi,
This is something I've been struggling with for a while..
I really love our church, we have such a rich history, our traditions are meaningful, our hymns are beautiful and all the saints who have defended our faith are amazing.

But what frustrates me is that some (I don't want to say most) people think our way of doing things is the only 'correct' way.
I've heard such people say things like 'that denominations method of worship is unacceptable and inappropriate'.
Who are we to define what is acceptable to God? (I mean in terms of subjective things like worship, not like commandments etc).

If certain churches want to use drums and guitars to worship God then why not? Didn't David dance and Miriam play the tambourine?

Another thing, I have friends from other churches who I've never heard say anything negative about our church (although its different from their own), but I've heard MANY times people from orthodox churches say things that imply we are the ONLY church that truly knows God.

My only comfort is that Christ knows us and examines our hearts..

_________________
You will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. (Jeremiah 29:13)

Do not seek the perfection of the law in human virtues, for it is not found perfect in them. Its perfection is hidden in the Cross of Christ.
+St. Mark the Ascetic+

I, the Lord, am your saviour, and your Redeemer.
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Truth.Seeker

Posts: 432

Joined: Feb 25, 2008

Posted: May 12, 2008 - 08:45 AM

I think there's two parts to your post, so let me address them both:

1) "Denominational" Worship - yeah, Copts critique this a lot. There's not much merit to the criticism, because all we have to do is look at the Ethiopian Orthodox Church (a sister-Church of ours, i.e. you and I can go there and take communion) and probably find MORE dancing and drumming. So, it's not really about the method of worship, it's stemming from the theological side. In other words, they're theologically different from us, so we criticize them, while the Ethiopians are part of the same Church, so we don't criticize them.

2) This is the theological part. I disagree with you here on several levels. First, we ARE the only Church that truly knows God. If I didn't believe this, I wouldn't be Coptic Orthodox. If you don't believe this, I don't know why you'd be Coptic Orthodox either. If two people disagree on something, at least one of them is wrong. If they say communion is not the body of Christ and we say communion is the body of Christ, one of us must be wrong. So, it's OK to say that we are right. There's no worry here, because just by being the denomination that they are, they are implicitly saying we are wrong too. If they belong to a denomination that doesn't think communion is the body of Christ, then they're implying that we are wrong to think so.

All of this stems from the fact that Christianity is objective, i.e. there's one right answer because God is not confused. So, since there's one right answer, if there's two points of view on any part of Christianity, at least one of them is wrong.

tonyhabibi

Posts: 1221

Joined: Apr 09, 2004
Location: IN THE back of your mind .navagating through your heart , resting in your soul .

Posted: May 12, 2008 - 09:46 AM

i think u should seperate certain topics of interest . for example . considering Dogma , and christian theology , i believe the COC resembles the Early church better then the protestants, catholics, lutheran , and whatever . coptic ORthodoxy when it comes to dogma , i feel is more on point when trying to explore the mysteries of god , and the life and and teachings and purpose of the only begotten son JEsus christ .

ur main argument was about Worship ... There is a story pope shenouda once said ... its a long story ...

One time , a man who spent most of his life preforming the the circus as an aerobics, and gymnastics preformer ..... he decided one day to give it all up , and join the monastary . he didnt know how to read or write .but he did know how to dance.. anyways , in the monastary , he would always be the first one to eat the meals , and the last one to come to prayer .... and this went on for years ,, and whenever the monks saw him he was very sweaty and ultra skinny , and always seemed to be out of breath . one day the monks were suspicious , and wanted to see what was going on , they asked him what he is up to but he didnt say anything . then they said we will just have to spy on him ... and when they did one day he would not expecting them , they found him in his room , dancing like , and doing all these tricks etcc..and it was an amazing sight .... then ...... they asked him what he was doing .... and he said ,... i cant read nor write ... the only thing i can do is dance .... and i am offerring my best skill to the lord .... u judged me , without knowing ....

after that , they said his face was glowing , and he soon died after that ....

---------

I dont know about using guitars in the litrugy , nor drums , nor saxaphones ... where does it end , i like the cymbals and triangle .... you decide. ... Tradition is a part of our church too ... theres a balance ... remember romans 12 : 2 .../. do not conform to this world .......

jydeacon

Posts: 147

Joined: Jan 16, 2007

Posted: May 12, 2008 - 11:49 AM

I agree with what has been stated, on the theological stand point its not wrong of us to say we are right and they are wrong, if the Lord said that this is My Body and this is My Blood then He is not a liar. They don't believe that what we are doing is right and criticize us at the same time.

On a side note, i heard a different version of that story just with a different ending and the ending was they spied on him once when he was in church and they found him dancing infront of the icon of st. mary. When they got closer they realized that the St. mary in the icon was smiling and laughing at what he was doing.

Truth.Seeker

Posts: 432

Joined: Feb 25, 2008

Posted: May 12, 2008 - 04:33 PM

I think it's interesting to note that the Catholic Church, in denying the usage of some of the methods at issue talked about how the West knows these methods in a non-religious way, while the East (might have been Africa) does not know these methods in this way. (This was to explain why it was wrong in the West, but why Eastern Catholics are sometimes allowed this usage).

So, I think "where it stops" is where the Church sees the crossing of the line. For example, belly-dancing drum-music is attributed by us to dancing, i.e. non-religious usage. Etc... For Copts, very few things beyond the triangle and cymbals don't cross the line. That was an over-broad statement, I don't know what every Copt's reaction would be.

Just to knock on the Catholic Church, I should say that just a few years after it explained why these methods are not allowed in the West, it allowed them in the West. Apparently Western culture saw a huge change in a span of a few years.

GraceM

Posts: 8

Joined: Jul 22, 2007

Posted: May 13, 2008 - 02:52 AM

Hi, you all raise some very interesting points and I appreciate your replies. While I agree that certain lines should not be crossed, I feel that even when such lines are NOT crossed there is alot of judgement being passed. While we should be thankful that our church puts certain guidlines in place for us, this does not give us the excuse to act 'superior'

I myself prefer quieter worship, but would NEVER tell someone that what their doing is unacceptable to Christ… we have to remember that not everyone was raised in a Coptic Orthodox church.

With regards to this comment:

“we ARE the only Church that truly knows God. If I didn't believe this, I wouldn't be Coptic Orthodox. If you don't believe this, I don't know why you'd be Coptic Orthodox either”

How can you say that our church is the ONLY church that truly knows God, so what you’re saying is that only Orthodox Christians have a true relationship with Christ and everyone else doesn’t??

“So, it's OK to say that we are right. There's no worry here, because just by being the denomination that they are, they are implicitly saying we are wrong too. If they belong to a denomination that doesn't think communion is the body of Christ, then they're implying that we are wrong to think so”.

So when I don’t participate in certain activities or go to certain places am I implicitly saying they are wrong?
This is true for some situations like maybe going to a pub- Yes I don’t go to places where alcohol is served because I think the atmosphere is inappropriate etc. But in others it is a matter of preference… e.g. someone may not eat meat, not because they think its wrong but because they prefer vegetarian food …

Same goes for worship style; by listening to church hymns I don’t believe I’m implicitly saying every other method of worship is wrong. I’m just expressing a preference.

Anyway, I’m not arguing the ‘correctness’ of our church... (your comments on communion suggest I'm doing this)... what I'm upset about is our attitude towards other churches.
I can honestly say I PREFER the way our church does things… but I’m not prepared to judge someone else and explicitly say ‘you’re way of doing such and such is wrong’ as I have seen happen.

Truth.Seeker

Posts: 432

Joined: Feb 25, 2008

Posted: May 13, 2008 - 04:53 AM

I know you weren't arguing the correctness of our Church (I actually relied on that fact to make my point).

If you go into a non-Eucharistic Protestant Church and ask them, "Do you believe that Communion in the Coptic Church is the Body of Christ?" They will answer with, "no." According to their theology, we are wrong. Infact, Protestantism exists because they thought/think the Catholic Church is wrong.

If you ask them, "Is confession to a priest necessary?" They will answer with "no." Etc...

This is not about disapproving of things you don't do, it's about disapproving of certain religious beliefs and therefore not doing them.

The Oriental Orthodox Church has the best relationship with Christ (again, if I didn't believe this, I wouldn't be Oriental Orthodox). I'm not talking about people, I'm talking about the faith. What relationship others have with Him, I don't know. We know Him best (which is what I meant by "truly know").

Personally, I wouldn't tell a Protestant, "your worship style is wrong." That wouldn't even make sense - who am I to decide what style is right or wrong. HOWEVER, I'd be willing to discuss our religious differences with anyone.

Truth.Seeker

Posts: 432

Joined: Feb 25, 2008

Posted: May 13, 2008 - 04:57 AM

P.S. looks like you completely ignored my "two part" analysis and conflated the second part of my analysis with the first part of your original post, i.e. changed my theology-based arguments into style-of-worship arguments.

GraceM

Posts: 8

Joined: Jul 22, 2007

Posted: May 13, 2008 - 10:49 PM

Hi,

Sorry Truth.Seeker if you feel I took some of your examples out of context. Okay, I totally understand what you are saying in your 1st point about us accepting the different worship style of the Eithiopian church because they believe what we believe in.
I don’t know how to explain it, but it just seems wrong that we say ‘yes this is okay for you, because you are like us’ but ‘no, this is unacceptable for you because the foundations of your belief are different’... do you know what I mean?

This again goes back to the point of my original post…
While our way of doing things maybe closest to the truth, there is really no need to criticize others methods and dismiss them as ‘not’ knowing Christ (which is something I’ve observed among Copts). In fact, we should (as Truth.Seeker mentioned) be willing to discuss our religious differences and share our love for our own traditions etc with others.
By sharing unique aspects of our Orthodoxy in a loving way it demonstrates confidence in our faith... as opposed to going around labelling everyone else as ‘wrong’ and arguing (as opposed to discussing) about every theological differences .

Thanks Tony for that short story… I think it really reiterates the fact that we should leave the judging to God.

Thanks.

Truth.Seeker

Posts: 432

Joined: Feb 25, 2008

Posted: May 13, 2008 - 11:53 PM

GraceM,

You misunderstood me. I said, "'Denominational' Worship - yeah, Copts critique this a lot. There's not much merit to the criticism, because all we have to do is look at the Ethiopian Orthodox Church..." I started with, "there's not much merit to the criticism." So I disagree with the criticism. The point about the Ethiopian Church is that although they have drumming and dancing, etc... Copts don't criticize their way of worship just because they agree with us theologically.

So, it's not about the style of worship, it's about theology. In other words, Protestants are criticized for their style just because they're different from us theologically, not because of their style. It's like some people on this forum, they'll disagree with me even if I say 2 + 2 = 4, because they disagre with me on so many other things Smile

. Of course disagreeing with 2 + 2 = 4 doesn't make sense.

It's really not about "our way of doing things." The way of "doing things" is our rites system - which is always changing. It's about our belief system. We disagree with all non-Oriental Orthodox on one thing or another. If we didn't think we were right, we wouldn't be Oriental Orthodox. For us to be right, then anyone who disagrees with us must be wrong. This is because Christianity is objective. Either confessing to a priest is necessary or unnecessary, can't be both.

Generally, any ill-tempered or ill-meaning way of discussing things is bad. The most counter-productive way to disuss something with someone is start out with, "you're wrong." Even though logically I think he/she is wrong and he/she thinks I'm wrong (since we disagree), it's better to keep it unsaid.

Fortunatus
Ask me for help!
Posts: 403

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Location: the Coptic Orthodox Church

Posted: May 14, 2008 - 03:23 PM

+Pi`<rictoc aftwnf!

Grace,

Thanks for posting about this so honestly.

There are some who would be quick to point out "that's Protestant!" or "that's Evangelical!" etc... with reason, and some out of ignorance.

Proper worship needs to stem from a 'full' understanding/appreciation for what the relationship of the Church with God ought to be. This is actually definable. What I'm getting at, is that in some cases it's not impossible to say what might be considered unacceptable or improper. You're correct, though, in that we cannot affirm and decide whether or not God accepts it (given that only He knows the heart/intention of man).

If one reads the Old Testamentfrom start to finish, he'll actually be able to see, quite clearly, the kind of relationship that God wants to have with man, what is acceptable, and what is not. This is not a type that expired with the New Testament, but rather, more was added. If God hated hypocrisy or praise that stemmed from self-gratification, he still hates it now (I'm not accusing anyone of that, I'm using it as an example.) The reader will appreciate the proper Image of God, and that understanding would help define what an acceptable worship is like.

Having said that, there are those who don't necessarily understand that or do that, or interpret, and might do things that are considered queer (in the truest sense of the word) to orthodoxy. As such, it's not wrong to say that this practice is not right, but it doesn't mean that God won't have accepted it.

If, for example, you are in a classroom that has set rules. Let's be dramatic and say that there's a rule that if you speak without raising your hand you're publicly executed. If a stranger came to the class and didn't know the rule, and in zeal spoke out without raising his hand, the teacher wouldn't necessarily execute him. At the same time, it's not okay for the rest of the class to just not raise their hand anymore. I know I'm going on and on with this, but I just wanted to suggest that sometimes it's okay to say that something isn't right, and we might even be able to say taht something isn't acceptable to do (for us), but not necessarily that God won't accept it.

I think others have already spoken about the whole concept of that we can say we're right about beliefs. I would only use the phrase that the fullness of truth is in Orthodox Christianity.

Pray for me.

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minaS

Posts: 196

Joined: Jun 26, 2003

Posted: May 14, 2008 - 04:41 PM

Christ is Risen!

To stimulate some thought, the following is a paraphrased quote from an Orthodox Priest :

We, as humans, are limited by the Sacraments, but God is not limited by the Sacraments.

We, as Orthodox Christians, have to accept that the way by which we worship is the correct way--after all, the word "orthodox" means "correct worship." Denominational relativism is a result of the veil that a pluralistic society blinds us with. That which comes from God is absolute. Just as there is a basis for morality in God, there is a basis for worship in God.

There is a subtle yet important distinction that must, however, be made so that we may not fall into the trap of judging others by the way in which we are forbidden: Criticizing protestants and claiming that the systems of worship of non-apostolic churches are wrong is not the same as making the ultimate judgement as to their eternal destination--heaven or hell. With respect to "judgement" we are forbidden only from the latter.

More importantly, there is overwhelming Biblical evidence for the sacraments of The Orthodox Church and the way in which She worships (e.g. you can find the Sacrament of the Unction of the Sick in St. James' epistle). The teachings of the Apostles also supports the way in which the Orthodox and Apostolic Church worships. The Apostles, in turn, were taught by God Himself in the Person of Jesus Christ, before His ascension, and through the Holy Spirit, after the ascension of Christ.

This is not to say that singing spiritual songs, gathering in informal prayer meetings, praying individually, or any other such types of worship are wrong. In fact, I think these things can be beneficial to keeping the name of the Lord in the totality of our lives.

These things, however, cannot be taken alone; they cannot be used as the basis for worship in the Church. The foundation of worship and that type of worship which is necessary in the Church is that which was given to us by God, through the Apostles, as a gift of His Love.

Thus, the way by which the Orthodox Church worships, and to some extent the Catholic Church as well, is, as far as we as the creation are concerned, the correct way. We should not seek the rituals of the Orthodox Church because we want some exotic experience. Rather, we should seek that which, by God, is deemed correct. That worship which is correct is found in the Orthodox Church.

Truth.Seeker

Posts: 432

Joined: Feb 25, 2008

Posted: May 15, 2008 - 12:46 PM

Absolutely. Any thoughts I have to share I've already posted in different threads on the forum.

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