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thereseh
Posts: 20
Joined: May 07, 2008
Location: St. Mina's COC, Hamilton, ON, Canada
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 Posted:
May 13, 2008 - 01:18 PM |
 
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Ok so, It is known that the Jews had very strict rites at the time of Passover to remove all of the leaven from their homes and there was no leaven to be found in any home or anywhere in the city at all. When our Lord Jesus Christ celebrated the Passover with His disciples, how was He able to find leavened bread (or leaven in general) to be able to institute the Eucharist? |
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Your sister in Christ,
Thérèse
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the Glory that shall be revealed in us.
Romans 8:28
"During your times of trial and sufferings...when you see only one set of footprints...it was then that i carried you." |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 353
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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| Posted:
May 14, 2008 - 12:49 PM |
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The word "storage" comes to mind. |
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thereseh
Posts: 20
Joined: May 07, 2008
Location: St. Mina's COC, Hamilton, ON, Canada
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| Posted:
May 14, 2008 - 02:23 PM |
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actually, i asked Brother Antonios and this was his imput..
Khristos anesti. Alitos anesti.
This is because our Lord Jesus is the LEAVEN ~ The old leaven was the leaven of "sin" which was ordered to be cleaned out.
Christ signifies/ is the LEAVEN. The Kingdom of God...
1) The Gospels make it clear that the type of bread that was used at the Lord’s Supper was “artos” (Greek), i.e. leavened bread, not “azymos” (Greek), i.e. unleavened bread. In the Greek and Coptic it is clear since there are two different words (Coptic – “oyk” for leavened bread, “adshamir” for unleavened bread) unlike English where it may not be clear.
2) The question here is not what the leaven means, but rather, how was it possible that leaven was used since there should have been none to be found to begin with since it was the beginning of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
3) Leaven has different meanings in the Holy Bible. At one time it is used to mean hypocrisy – “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees” (Matt. 16:6, 11, 12). At another time it is used to mean sin as was mentioned above: “Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth” (1Cor. 5:7-8). But keep in mind, that leaven is not always used as something negative in the Holy Bible. In fact, our Lord Jesus Christ used it to symbolize the kingdom of heaven: “Another parable He spoke to them: The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened” (Matt. 13:33). This brings up the next point –
4) We must distinguish between the actual reason why we do things by tradition and the contemplation. The reason that we do things is tradition, because that was what was delivered by our Lord Jesus Christ and His apostles. Everything that comes afterward is contemplation. The reason that we use leaven is because that is what our Lord Jesus Christ used at the Lord’s Supper and what was used by the apostles later on. Everything else is contemplation and not the ultimate reason that it is done. Contemplation can be useful when used appropriately, but still is not the actual reason or purpose.
5) Lastly, as a side note, keep in mind that in the first Passover done in the Old Testament while the people of Israel were in Egypt – the bread that they made had leaven in it. The leaven ended up going bad because they were in such a rush to make the bread and it didn’t rise, but it still had leaven in it. Please see Exodus 12:34, 39. The reason that unleavened bread was used afterwards in subsequent Passovers was to show how quickly they left Egypt and the salvation that God provided for them, but the first time the bread had leaven but it didn’t rise.
I am looking forward to more input and discussion about this.
Remember my weakness in your prayers.
In Christ,
Antonios
makes sense to be, but I still don't understand where he got it from , ok maybe storage, but common... |
_________________
Your sister in Christ,
Thérèse
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the Glory that shall be revealed in us.
Romans 8:28
"During your times of trial and sufferings...when you see only one set of footprints...it was then that i carried you." |
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thereseh
Posts: 20
Joined: May 07, 2008
Location: St. Mina's COC, Hamilton, ON, Canada
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| Posted:
May 14, 2008 - 07:41 PM |
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hey, Brother Antonios e-mail me back with this...
Khristos anesti. Alitos anesti.
There was absolutely none to be found. The Jews had very specific rites to ensure that there was no leaven in any home or in the city at all. At the time, they would place two large loaves on top of a tower in Jerusalem, a place where everyone could see them. At the time of the Passover/ the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the high priest would remove the first loaf in a ceremonial manner and the people would begin to collect and remove any leaven or any product with leaven in it from their homes. By the time the second loaf was removed, all of the leaven had to be totally out of the homes and it would be hidden in a certain place outside of the city so that it would be available for when after the Days of Unleavened Bread would be over. But it was unaccessible.
When Passover is celebrated today amongst Jewish families, they practice the same type of rite. In fact, some practice a rite with their children hiding pieces of bread (leavened bread) throughout the house for the children to find and pick up so that it can be removed.
So, no – leaven was absolutely forbidden and unaccessible for those seven days. This was God’s commandment to the people from the very institution of the Passover: “For seven days no leaven shall be found in your houses, since whoever eats what is leavened, that same person shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is a stranger or a native of the land. `You shall eat nothing leavened; in all your dwellings you shall eat unleavened bread.'” (Exodus 12:19-20).
Remember my weakness in your prayers.
In Christ,
Antonios |
_________________
Your sister in Christ,
Thérèse
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the Glory that shall be revealed in us.
Romans 8:28
"During your times of trial and sufferings...when you see only one set of footprints...it was then that i carried you." |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 353
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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| Posted:
May 15, 2008 - 10:35 AM |
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So, I think Brother Antonios (is he a monk?) means that they used unleavened bread but that Christ is the leaven, that's why the Bible says "leavened." That's what I gather by his first and second e-mails. His first says that the leaven is Christ, and the second says there was no leavened bread around.
Christ could've easily made the bread leavened if He wanted to. So, it really doesn't matter if the verse is symbolic or actual - the fact that there was no leavened bread around doesn't mean much. It's like asking "where did Christ get the fish and bread from?" |
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thereseh
Posts: 20
Joined: May 07, 2008
Location: St. Mina's COC, Hamilton, ON, Canada
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| Posted:
May 15, 2008 - 11:14 AM |
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Brother Antonios is not a monk, but he will become one soon. I think next year he said.
As for the two e-mails, the answer to the actual question has not been answered. So the question still remains...
When our Lord Jesus Christ celebrated
the Passover with His disciples, how was He able to find leavened bread(or leaven in general) to be able to institute the Eucharist?
Brother Antonios wants me to find the answer, but I have NO idea..i'm reading all four accounts from all four gospels, but nothing is clicking in yet..:S
any ideas? don't be shy:D |
_________________
Your sister in Christ,
Thérèse
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the Glory that shall be revealed in us.
Romans 8:28
"During your times of trial and sufferings...when you see only one set of footprints...it was then that i carried you." |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 353
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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| Posted:
May 15, 2008 - 12:39 PM |
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Deleted for mistake. |
Last edited by Truth.Seeker on May 16, 2008 - 11:48 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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thereseh
Posts: 20
Joined: May 07, 2008
Location: St. Mina's COC, Hamilton, ON, Canada
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| Posted:
May 15, 2008 - 01:15 PM |
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ok so Brother Antonios answered with this:
" the Jewish postponed the Passover and unleavened bread celebration from
Thursday the 14th of the month (when the Lord celebrated Passover in the
right time) to Friday after they finished crucified our savior."
This is the answer -- that the Jews postponed the Passover for a day so that
they could crucify our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the answer of our Coptic
Orthodox Church with Biblical and historical evidence. The question now is
-- how? We need to "search the Scriptures" and some other evidence to prove
this.
In terms of what the Roman Catholic and Byzantine Orthodox say about this --
the Roman Catholics say that since our Lord Jesus Christ celebrated the
Passover on its actual day, then He must have used unleavened bread and that
is why they use wafers. This, of course, is in contradiction to both
tradition and the Bible when the type of bread is specified as "artos"
(Greek) or "oyk" (Coptic), i.e. leavened bread.
The Byzantine Orthodox believe that He used leavened bread given the Greek
word written in the Bible. But in order to support this, they say that He
celebrated the Passover a day early, the 13th of Nisan, in order to find the
leaven. This also contradicts the Holy Bible since it is clear that the
Passover lamb had to be killed on the 14th of Nisan and that is the day that
our Lord celebrated the Passover with His disciples, i.e. on the proper day.
okay so makes sense to me!! |
_________________
Your sister in Christ,
Thérèse
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the Glory that shall be revealed in us.
Romans 8:28
"During your times of trial and sufferings...when you see only one set of footprints...it was then that i carried you." |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 353
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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| Posted:
May 15, 2008 - 01:42 PM |
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Deleted for mistake. |
Last edited by Truth.Seeker on May 16, 2008 - 11:48 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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thereseh
Posts: 20
Joined: May 07, 2008
Location: St. Mina's COC, Hamilton, ON, Canada
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| Posted:
May 15, 2008 - 01:52 PM |
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economists these days..lol:P |
_________________
Your sister in Christ,
Thérèse
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the Glory that shall be revealed in us.
Romans 8:28
"During your times of trial and sufferings...when you see only one set of footprints...it was then that i carried you." |
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thereseh
Posts: 20
Joined: May 07, 2008
Location: St. Mina's COC, Hamilton, ON, Canada
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| Posted:
May 15, 2008 - 03:19 PM |
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ok i told him i gave up..here's the answer:)
Khristos anesti. Alitos anesti.
1) Our Lord celebrated the Passover with His disciples on the correct,
proper day, the 14th of Nisan.
2) The Jews delayed the Passover one day in order to crucify our Lord.
3) Thus, there was still leaven in Jerusalem which was used in instituting
the Lord's Supper.
Remember my weakness in your prayers.
In Christ,
Antonios
ok problem solved:) |
_________________
Your sister in Christ,
Thérèse
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the Glory that shall be revealed in us.
Romans 8:28
"During your times of trial and sufferings...when you see only one set of footprints...it was then that i carried you." |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 353
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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| Posted:
May 16, 2008 - 11:52 PM |
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Hello,
On another reading of the verse 1 Chronicles 23:29, it seems that the "unleavened cakes" was not referring to the showbread.
29 both with the showbread and the fine flour for the grain offering, with the unleavened cakes and what is baked in the pan, with what is mixed and with all kinds of measures and sizes;
So I deleted my previous posts in which I had stated the showbread was unleavened. Brother Antonios pointed out to me that the showbread was regular leavened bread, at which point I re-read the verse. I thank him for his help and guidance. I apologize for my mistake. |
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