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AnthonyXM

Posts: 25

Joined: May 25, 2008

Posted: May 25, 2008 - 08:32 PM

Greetings Friends,
I am not Coptic and know little of your church.
I have always been intensely interested in the lives of the Desert Fathers. Their ways have always appealed to me; solitude, contemplative prayer seem to be the essense of the Christ centered life. However this view tends not to sit well with western belief.
St Anthony's name is also my given name, and I have always felt a closeness to him.
Do you feel it is "off base" to want to live as he did?
That is basically what I get told when I bring the subject up to my contemporary Christians.
I would like to know your opinions on this please.
Does the way of St Anthony still have a place in the world?

God bless you. Anthony

Dolagi

Posts: 6

Joined: Oct 01, 2007

Posted: May 25, 2008 - 09:20 PM

I personally do not think it is wrong to want to live as Saint Anthony did. There are many monks and people living Christ-centered lives. I believe that it is great that people want to live this kind of life. May God direct you. You also might want to consult your spiritual guide.

AnthonyXM

Posts: 25

Joined: May 25, 2008

Posted: May 25, 2008 - 10:28 PM

Thank you for the reply friend.
I know that most can't abide the eremitic life, but for those who feel drawn to it (I do) it seems the perfect existance with the Lord.
I wonder that God may be inclining me toward this.
I have followed my namesakes' path before, going long periods with no outside contact, combining work with prayer, and found it immensely spiritual.
It was as if I truly lived for the first time in a long time.
Others I speak to about it say it is not the right way to live, that it is spiritually harmful and I must not do it. St Anthony would disagree I think.
Anchorites were once common in the west but their lifestyle has pretty much vanished, and I believe it is because the practice was discouraged.
I believe that was wrong.
Any other opinions on this?

God bless you. Anthony

AnthonyXM

Posts: 25

Joined: May 25, 2008

Posted: May 26, 2008 - 09:27 AM

I love the icons I see as avatars on posts here.
As they say a picture is worth a thousand words, and the ones I have seen so far speak a mystical language of the eye.
They are glorious - and hard to put into words. Perhaps that is the Lord's intent?
Wondrous - praise God, who speaks to the eye that can't read and ear that can't hear.

God bless you all. Anthony

copt07

Posts: 14

Joined: Apr 16, 2006

Posted: May 26, 2008 - 10:59 AM

AnthonyXM wrote:

Others I speak to about it say it is not the right way to live, that it is spiritually harmful and I must not do it. St Anthony would disagree I think.
Anchorites were once common in the west but their lifestyle has pretty much vanished, and I believe it is because the practice was discouraged.
I believe that was wrong.
Any other opinions on this?

God bless you. Anthony

Hey Anthony,

You are correct. Protestants view monasticism very negatively!
Check out what Martin Luther wrote about monasticism:

1] As monastic vows directly conflict with the first chief article, they must be absolutely abolished. For it is of them that Christ says, Matt. 24, 5. 23ff : I am Christ, etc. 2] For he who makes a vow to live as a monk believes that he will enter upon a mode of life holier than ordinary Christians lead, and wishes to earn heaven by his own works not only for himself, but also for others; this is to deny Christ. 3] And they boast from their St. Thomas that a monastic vow is equal to Baptism. This is blasphemy [against God].

Peace

Truth.Seeker

Posts: 432

Joined: Feb 25, 2008

Posted: May 26, 2008 - 11:17 AM

Matthew 19:

6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”
8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality,[d] and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”
10 His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”
Jesus Teaches on Celibacy

11 But He said to them, “All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given: 12 For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.”

_____

Obviously, it is better to not marry than to marry. Christ says that all cannot accept the saying to not marry, but "only those to whome it has been given." Of course anything from Christ is positive. So, the ability to not marry is a positive grace bestowed on those who do it for Christ.

So, Anthony, if you are able to accept it, by Christ's words, you should do it. And by doing it, you will receive more grace for doing it. You are probably familiar with St. Anthony's story - he went to Church, heard the verse about how to be perfect (sell everything one has and following Him), so he did that.

Since you are not Coptic Orthodox, a Coptic monastery would not accept you in the monastic order. If you are Protestant, then there's no monastic order that you can join. You can either convert and join a Church that has a monastic order, or you can try to live as best as you can taking St. Anthony as your model in this world.

In my opinion, it's actually tougher to do the latter, but if you are able to do it, you'll get that much more blessing for doing it.

AnthonyXM

Posts: 25

Joined: May 25, 2008

Posted: May 26, 2008 - 12:58 PM

This is very helpful, thank you.

Copt07 I am more an inhabitant of Protestantism than a believer in its tenets - whatever those may be. However that is not sufficient.
I certainly wouldn't entrust my soul to the ideas of Martin Luther. His railings against the cenobitic way are only true if it becomes a burden on the body of Christ, or a means of avoiding responsibility as a worthy servant.
He obviously attacks their motive; self glory instead of selfless service. If that is the case it is a work of flesh, granted.
Yet however much he thought he was serving truth does not excuse the horrors either done in his name or at his behest.
Would any disagree that it is best to discard his opinion?
Faith will entail danger; but I feel that to avoid the danger Protestants may have thrown out much of the faith with the bathwater. I suspect Protestantism may be dying for want of that.
Thank you for your help.

Truthseeker you speak with some authority.
I don't want to do it if it is merely a comfort to myself, and if it is something the Lord wants then it is something I'd best do to the exclusion of all else.

Therefore it is a question of what is being served?
I think of the Anchorites walled up in a wall of a church.
I can see the tremendous value of this to a congregation. During the services all are aware that beyond the little curtained window in the wall sits someone who has forsaken all the common pleasures of life to seek greater communion with God.
When you speak to that person, and find that like Anthony they are in glorious good spirit, how can your faith not be strengthened?
I know that he would speak to those who came to his fort from behind the wall. He was not a recluse who merely shuns humanity.
I dream of what it must have been like to speak with that great holy man - and the strength just the knowledge of him must have given to others in their daily walk.

From that a second question develops; if it is God that so enables, is it sinful to feel comfort for it? I know that St Anthony is said to have been extremely happy with his lot.

I am capable and have the means to follow as St Anthony did, so that is indeed the path I would follow - but not out of want of self sanctification; of that I must be certain.
I am a man of means but I live simply, and consider what I have to be dedicated to the welfare of others.
In fact others are dependant on me for their welfare, and were I to give it away they would be out in the cold again. I doubt the Lord would intend that.
True it is a corner I have painted myself into, but it happened so easily that I suspect his doing in it
So I am trying to resolve the question how do I do this in a way that benefits others first and foremost?
I can't have myself walled up in a church or go to a fort in the desert. (I am not seeking suggestions - I know how to do the workmanlike details)

You have answered my question however - the Coptic and other faiths that have been here since our Lord's time do not subscribe to the Protestant view - am I correct? It is their view that is suspect? That is my view.

Any other input? Please give me your hearts in this.

God bless you. Anthony

Truth.Seeker

Posts: 432

Joined: Feb 25, 2008

Posted: May 26, 2008 - 01:19 PM

When talking about husbands, St. Paul says if they can't serve their family, they can't serve the Church. That is analogous to your situation, you cannot serve God by neglecting those who depend on you. So, in your case, "selling everything and following Him" may not be the best thing.

I should mention that St. Anthony originally was going to give some money to his sister so that she can live off of it, but then decided to send her to a convent and give all of the money away. That's probably much harder to do nowadays, and I don't know how obedient the people depending on you would be to this.

Regarding feeling comfort, let me put my cynical view out there so you know where I am coming from. All of us do things because we believe not doing them would be more detrimental to us than doing them. In that sense, we are all "selfish" in every decision that we make.

I am writing this post because I would rather write it than not write it (if I preferred not writing it, I wouldn't be writing it). However, there are selfish reasons, and there are selfish reasons. Doing something because you think it pleases God is the best reason to do anything. So, if we're going to be "selfish," that's the best way to do it.

There are many Protestant views as there are many groups of Protestants, so I don't want to generalize through a broad brush stroke, but I think that being single and serving God is obviously superior to obtaining a family. These are the words of St. Paul. He instructs widows to be as he "is" (not married) since then they'd have their full devotion to God, not God and their husbands. But it was not an absolute instruction, it was more of, "both are fine, but this is better."

So, my thoughts would be: support those that you are supporting and serve God from within the world. God knows, we need more people who live the Christian life in the world, so as to be an example to others. How many see the Anchroties as opposed to those who would see those Christians roaming around with everyone else? The latter have a bigger audience, and I would venture to say a bigger impact.

_________________
A. S.

AnthonyXM

Posts: 25

Joined: May 25, 2008

Posted: May 26, 2008 - 01:32 PM

Thank you Truthseeker.

In re your last paragraph the last has been decided for me. I live in an isolated area and no longer drive or even possess a vehicle (money spent better elsewhere). So in effect you could say I am already Anthony in his fort.
I already do most of my support via mail or email. So I am already pretty much 90% there.

Any other thoughts?

God bless you. Anthony

AnthonyXM

Posts: 25

Joined: May 25, 2008

Posted: May 26, 2008 - 03:30 PM

From what I've been able to tell the Coptic church is the authority when it comes to Christian Solitude.
The Catholic church recognizes its Solitaries as consecrated, and both Greek and Russian also recognize eremetism, but the Coptic appears to have the lead among them all in practice.
The churches all had a process for assessing a candidate's suitability for eremetic living before allowing an aspirant to do so.
Can any of you refer me to any texts on what this process entails?
I know that the safeguard against acedia was provided by St Anthony himself; work. Any assistance will be appreciated.

God bless you. Anthony

Ehab

Posts: 4

Joined: Sep 02, 2003

Posted: May 27, 2008 - 09:51 PM

Anthony,

I just happened to come across this forum and I admire your desire for the monastic life. I also admire your efforts to live as St. Anthony did and I pray that God grants you your wish as you grow closer and closer to Him.

If you're interested, I'm not sure if you're aware that there are 2 Coptic Orthodox monasteries here in the US. There is one in California less than 100 miles outside of LA and there is another less than 100 miles outside of Corpus Christi, TX. Even if you don't plan to live there, perhaps you could visit one of them for a spiritual retreat and also receive spiritual guidance from other monks who have already begun the path which you're striving towards.

St. Anthony's monastery in california: http://www.stantonymonastery.org/

St. Mary and St. Moses Abbey in Texas:
http://abbey.suscopts.org/

I hope this helps.

Ehab

AnthonyXM

Posts: 25

Joined: May 25, 2008

Posted: May 27, 2008 - 10:12 PM

Thank you Ehab, that was most kind of you.
With the exception of some creature comforts I pretty much do live as my namesake did. However it was not by choice as much as circumstance. Only in recent years has it occurred to me I could live the life of the Desert Fathers.
If I could I would give everything away and find a cabin on a lonely mountain and go there with a sack of flour - it is something I truly hunger for - however there seem to be limits to what I can do (imposed perhaps by a greater power).
I pray to know if that is what he wants of me, for his purposes.
The responsibilities I still have prevent my traveling, but it is good to know some still live the way of St Anthony and St Paul, and that a greater glory of God is served by them.

God bless you. Anthony

_________________
for St Anthony
Hands to work, Hearts to God

helani

Posts: 6

Joined: Dec 21, 2005

Posted: May 28, 2008 - 03:28 PM

[quote="Truth.Seeker"]Matthew 19:

6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”
8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality,[d] and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”
10 His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”
Jesus Teaches on Celibacy

11 But He said to them, “All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given: 12 For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.”

_____

Obviously, it is better to not marry than to marry. Christ says that all cannot accept the saying to not marry, but "only those to whome it has been given." Of course anything from Christ is positive. So, the ability to not marry is a positive grace bestowed on those who do it for Christ."

TruthSeeker,
Marriage and Monasticism, in the eyes of our church and of Christ Himself, are different paths to the same calling: Christ. To say that one is a "greater" calling than the other is wrong.

There are many writings on the aseticism of marriage, the sanctity and beauty of matrimony, and the opinions of select fathers (especially St. John Chrysostom) on the sacrament of love. Some are called to a life in Christ through solitude, some through the sacrament of marriage. But both should lead to Christ. There are also many married saints all over the Christian church.

It's a common misconception and misreading of the passage from the gospel of Matthew that you quoted to believe that Christ is saying marriage is less honorable, or less blessed than monasticism; in fact, He would not have blessed the wedding of Cana in Galilee if this were the case by giving them the gift of wine at their wedding (as it was in fact a sanctifying and beautiful gift), nor would God have created man and woman together in the beginning, intending for them to be as one, just as the Trinity is one.

In the passage in Matthew, the Lord is revealing that in His infinite love for His children, He allows for different paths, different ways for His children (as we are not all the same and have unique gifts) to live in His love and be filled with Him entirely. Marriage has its ascetic requirements in the world, and is considered as martyrdom. Not only that, but how can a sacrament that is the icon of the love between Christ and His bride the church, be any less than the life in Christ of the hermits, monks, nuns, and other celibates? Granted, the gifts that each acquire and the life each leads may be different, but so are our God-given talents. Gifts and talents do not earn salvation, nor do they deem one life more significant than another, but they are given to us in order to further God's kingdom, not to place rankings.

If you talk to a monastic who is filled with the Holy Spirit, they will tell you that yes, their way of life is beautiful and spiritual if you are called, but that Christ-centered marriage (not the way the world presents it to us, but truly Christ centered marriage) is also a beautiful calling and an expression of a life infused with the Holy Spirit.

As young people, we need to understand this and cultivate within our community a mentality that supports all the different members of Christ's Body, just as He did and does, remembering that each member is unique and just as necessary as the other.

your sister and servant in Christ,
h

petermansour

Posts: 17

Joined: Jul 25, 2007
Location: St. Mary's COC Baltimore, MD

Posted: May 28, 2008 - 05:56 PM

To add on to helani was saying, Christ shows us that these are both paths that have been blessed for us.

If we look at the feast of the Transfiguration, we notice the two holy men which appeared with Christ. Moses who was very dead to God was a married man. On the other hand, Elijah lived a life of solitude, and of course was beloved by God. Just a small example I thought I'd through in.

I also wanted to add that I am fascinated by your will to live in solitude. I agree with Ehab, and suggest going to one of these monasteries and giving the taste of authentic Coptic Monasticism right here in the US. The monk there would probably be very willing to tell you about their struggles and what drove them to become monks in the first place, which seems to be your dilemma at the moment. God bless! I'll be praying for you=D

petermansour

Posts: 17

Joined: Jul 25, 2007
Location: St. Mary's COC Baltimore, MD

Posted: May 28, 2008 - 06:43 PM

sorry I meant to type dear* not dead lol.

thanks mikehenry!

AnthonyXM

Posts: 25

Joined: May 25, 2008

Posted: May 28, 2008 - 07:40 PM

Thank you all for your kind input.
Reading articles by HH and others on this site has been most helpful and instructive. The lives of those besides Anthony were good study and enlightening as well.
The only problem I had was that protestants were telling me that this life - which I have already begun - is unchristian and sinful.
I didn't believe that to be true at all but had to submit to other Christians for their belief about it, rather than be headstrong and rebellious on my own.
I believe they are misguided, and will now enter into the hidden life without doubts that were troubling me before.

God bless you all. Anthony

_________________
for St Anthony
Hands to work, Hearts to God

helani

Posts: 6

Joined: Dec 21, 2005

Posted: Jun 02, 2008 - 04:18 PM

Anthony, if you visit St. Antony's monastery in California, you'll really enjoy it. Fr. Anastasi is the head of the monastery and he was raised in the States.. it's a beautiful, peaceful, quiet place where you can certainly hear God's voice and enjoy the life of solitude. You should definately try to visit! Enjoy, and please send my love to the monks and brothers.

your sister and servant in Christ,
h

AnthonyXM

Posts: 25

Joined: May 25, 2008

Posted: Jun 02, 2008 - 05:10 PM

Thank you for the kind words Helani.
I have already entered into confinement and may not leave it.
I have sentenced myself to life in solitary confinement - and it is a truly blessed thing.
In time I will have to be rid of this "window" I use to speak to you, that I may know the true Hidden Life.
At last I follow my Abba Anthony.
Thank you my Lord, thank you.

God bless you all

_________________
for St Anthony
Hands to work, Hearts to God

kirollosab

Posts: 23

Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Location: california

Posted: Jun 09, 2008 - 08:07 AM

Hey Anthony,
I don't usually post alot, but i wanted to speak up because i disagreed wtih a few things that were said, but before i start on that i want to mention a story that will give encourage your zeal, and will grant you encouragement!
There is a monk called Fr. Lazarus; i don't know if you've heard about him or not, but he was an atheist, and upon speaking with a 13 or 14-year-old girl from the australlia in the coptic church, she was able with God's grace to change his faith; she gave him books, and he believed!
He is now a monk, i think at St. Bishoy's monastery (not sure, but some monastery in Egypt), he lives in a cave, he walks down the cave everyday to pray a liturgy, climbs back up, and so forth everyday! he's known for excorcisim (casting out demons)... sorry i'm not spelling correctly...
he also has relationships with saints... i don't want to mention much more since he is still alive...

the only thing i can say to you is PRAY...
PUSH (pray until something happens)...

the thing i wanted to disagree with is that someone earlier mentioned that celibacy is better than marriage...
i'm going to prove that it's not true... (sorry this is long);
Marriage is a sacrament; Marriage is holy; God took Anoch (Akhnokh) up to heaven, there's not much mentioned about him!
a book in the bible says (i think Jeramiah: i don't have my bible on me) "the gold is mine, and the silver is mine" (rephrased).
there were saints who were married, and there were saints who were not! the greatest misconception among people is that celibacy is the way to go!

in order to pursue ur "spiritual dream" make sure you are guided, because as St. James and Solomon the king mention that one must be guided because all those without a guide are lost.

it doesnt matter if ur coptic or not at this point... just as long as you are baptized... if u live in CA or TX or the other state that has a monastery... try to go and visit... spend about 3-5 days and serve... but make sure u keep a spiritual goal in mind... talk to the monks... some will encourage no matter what... try not to only take that... take their rebuke as well because "the foolish man rejects rebuke" (rephrased from proverbs, King Solomon"

May God help you in your path...
to recap the 2 most important things are prayer and spiritual guidance.
one last thing, i do not know if you have heard of Pope Kyrillos the 6th or not: he was our last pope the 116th (the only pope who was not a bishop b4); he lived the life of monasticism in his house for 5 years before he went to the monastery!

keep in mind... i can't encourage or discourage u from pursuing what's in your head... of course there will be tribulations in teh way, and tough fights... but it's the christian struggle!

Since u like St. Anthony... talk to him in ur prayers... he'll listen to you, he won't ignore because relationships wiht the saints are powerful... throughout the coptic history it has been prove... back to pope kyrillos he had a VERY STRONG relationship with St. Mina...

sorry for taking long of ur time, but one last point is Fr. Lazarus, when he was ordained and accepted into the church he told St. Mary to take care of him for 10 years; 10 years later he tripped while going down (don't konw much details, and i don't want to reveal anymore) he then realized that it was the deal with st mary, and he thoght "what was i thinking, please guard me forever"

please keep me in your praeyrs!

hope this was of any help...

i'll check back later to see if replied!

kirollosab

Posts: 23

Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Location: california

Posted: Jun 09, 2008 - 08:10 AM

AnthonyXM wrote:

The only problem I had was that protestants were telling me that this life - which I have already begun - is unchristian and sinful.
I didn't believe that to be true at all but had to submit to other Christians for their belief about it, rather than be headstrong and rebellious on my own.
I believe they are misguided, and will now enter into the hidden life without doubts that were troubling me before.

God bless you all. Anthony

concerning what you had just mentioned... we are not really in union with the protestant church for many reasons... they even took out books form our bible and called them the deutrocanonical books lol... so yea... idk what to tell you except pray for htem and for us... and for hte christian unity!

AnthonyXM

Posts: 25

Joined: May 25, 2008

Posted: Jun 09, 2008 - 04:03 PM

I didn't have the heart not to reply to you Kyrillos.
Yes I know of HH's time in retreat.
I have been living the hidden life for several years now to see if I could withstand it. I believe I am called to it for his purpose, but only a few months ago did I feel a dedicated urge.
Abba Anthony and all his brothers and sisters are wonderful people.
The way that returns us to him if only for a brief time is worth it.
I am studying the Desert Fathers and Mothers and it is a tremendous help.
God bless all the souls of the holy Coptic church.

The Way of St Anthony lives.

kirollosab

Posts: 23

Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Location: california

Posted: Jun 09, 2008 - 10:32 PM

May God be with you in your quest,

please don't forget to mention me in your prayers!

pistavros

Posts: 77

Joined: Oct 29, 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Jun 10, 2008 - 04:22 AM

Father Lazarus is from St Bishoy's monastery but he lives in a cave on St Antony's mountain, Mount Colzim

There is a few things about him on the net just google his name.
A few books speak about him and interview him

1- Words to live by
2- A journet in the desert with St Anthony

_________________
Irini nem Aghaby

MS

"Prayer, fasting, vigils, and all other Christian practices, however good they may be in themselves, certainly do not consititue the aim of our Christian life; they are but indispensible means of attaining that aim. For the true aim of the Christian life is the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God. As for fasts, vigils, prayer and almsgiving, and other good works done in the name of Christ, they are only means of acquiring the Holy Spirit of God. Note well that it is only good works done in the name of Christ that bring us the fruits of the Spirit" -ST SERAPHIM OF SAROV

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