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Fr.Kyrillos
Posts: 14
Joined: May 18, 2007
Location: San Diego
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 Posted:
Jun 09, 2008 - 09:30 AM |
 
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St. Athanasius and St. Cyril Theological Library presents…
"Understanding the Holy Trinity"
with H.G. Bishop Serapion and Rev. Fr. George Dion. Dragas
How can I understand the Holy Trinity?
In the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Amen.
These words of blessing occur at the beginning of our private and liturgical prayers, but what do they mean? What is the Orthodox understanding of the Holy Trinity and the relationship of the Persons in the Holy Trinity?
An open invitation to all.
Join us for an academic and spiritual conference to discuss the Orthodox understanding of the Holy Trinity. All are welcomed to these events. Churches and organizations are encouraged to purchase groups of tickets in advance.
Space is limited, so reserve early at the web site below or call Paul Samaan at (951) 256-0469 for more information and manual reservations.
copticlibrary.org/register
If you would like to download a color flier for your church bulleting board and/or to send by email to others who might be interested please go to:
http://www.copticlibrary.org/files/2008 ... 0Flyer.pdf |
_________________
Our continual mistake is that we do not concentrate upon the present day, the actual hour, of our life: we live in the past or in the future; we are continually expecting the coming of some special moment when our life will unfold itself in its full significance. And we do not notice that life is flowing like water through our fingers, sifting like precious grain from a loosely fastened bag.
Constantly, each day, each hour, God is sending us people, circumstances, tasks, which should mark the beginning of our renewal; yet we pay them no attention, and thus continually we resist God’s will for us. Indeed, how can God help us? Only by sending us in our daily life certain people, and certain coincidences of circumstance. If we accepted every hour of our life as the hour of God’s will for us, as the decisive, most important, unique hour of our life -- what sources of joy, love, strength, as yet hidden from us, would spring from the depths of our soul!
Fr. Alexander Elchaninov, Diary of a Russian Priest |
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Fr.Kyrillos
Posts: 14
Joined: May 18, 2007
Location: San Diego
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| Posted:
Jul 10, 2008 - 03:44 PM |
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Iqbal
Posts: 127
Joined: Nov 14, 2004
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Jul 10, 2008 - 06:46 PM |
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Dear Fr Kyrillos,
I was just wondering why Fr. Dragas is frequently asked to give talks in Coptic churches/conferences? I recently read a recent work of his in which he took a rather polemical tone against our Church on the matter of Chalcedonian vs. non-Chalcedonian interpretations of St Cyril.
Iqbal |
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Fr.Kyrillos
Posts: 14
Joined: May 18, 2007
Location: San Diego
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Jul 10, 2008 - 09:34 PM |
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Dear Iqbal,
I am not sure which of his writings you are referring to, but Fr. George Dragas is a great friend to the Copts and has an immense devotion to the lives and writings of Sts. Athanasius and Cyril that is quite evident to anyone who knows him or has heard him speak.
He has become a regular invited guest here in the Diocese of Los Angeles to speak at the annual patristics conference as well as to our clergy retreat with H.G. Bishop Serapion.
There is no secret to the fact that as a Chalcedonian, he adheres to the belief that Chalcedon is in agreement with St. Cyril...would you expect otherwise? However, having said that, he in no way holds any belief that the Non-Chalcedonians were ever at any point heretical in their beliefs. He is amongst the greatest supporters of reunion between our two churches and has participated in some of the official diolgues.
I suppose that any scholar on any side of the issue of Chalcedon will at times have to appear as polemical. I don't think we should be worried about that but through engagement we can go beyond the polemics. I very much doubt that any serious scholar on our side will overlook the faults of Chalcedon, and yet we can hope that such a scholar would still be invited to speak at conferences in a friendly environment dealing with issues that rarely touch on the specific issue of Chalcedon.
Finally, partly through his influence, we have sent from our Diocese several youth to study at Holy Cross in Boston where he was once Dean and is currently still a professor.
God bless you...please pray for me.
Kyrillos |
_________________
Our continual mistake is that we do not concentrate upon the present day, the actual hour, of our life: we live in the past or in the future; we are continually expecting the coming of some special moment when our life will unfold itself in its full significance. And we do not notice that life is flowing like water through our fingers, sifting like precious grain from a loosely fastened bag.
Constantly, each day, each hour, God is sending us people, circumstances, tasks, which should mark the beginning of our renewal; yet we pay them no attention, and thus continually we resist God’s will for us. Indeed, how can God help us? Only by sending us in our daily life certain people, and certain coincidences of circumstance. If we accepted every hour of our life as the hour of God’s will for us, as the decisive, most important, unique hour of our life -- what sources of joy, love, strength, as yet hidden from us, would spring from the depths of our soul!
Fr. Alexander Elchaninov, Diary of a Russian Priest |
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Iqbal
Posts: 127
Joined: Nov 14, 2004
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Jul 10, 2008 - 09:59 PM |
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Dear Fr Kyrillos,
Ofcourse I would expect a Chalcedonian bias from Chalcedonian clergy no matter their ecumenical disposition to the non-Chalcedonian Faith, but I assure you that the remarks I refer to did not simply reflect a Chalcedonian bias; they were rather disparigingly anti-non-Chalcedonian in my opinion. I would prefer not to publicise the work in question nor the nature of the relevant comments so I will email you the details and maybe you can speak to Fr Dragas personally about the matter.
I will say the following at the very least:
Your take on Fr. Dragas does not, in my opinion, really contradict the position he advocates in the work in question. It seems to me that Fr. Dragas makes a distinction between the present OO Church and the OO Church of the 4th-5th-6th centuries. In the work in question he acknowledges the distinction between miaphysite and monophysite, and yet rather consistently applies the latter to St Severus and the early OO Church. I would not think it too fanciful to suggest that Fr. Dragas, like other Chalcedonians I have met, do have a subtle agenda to reconcile OOxy with EOxy on their own terms. Their favourable disposition to our Church is grounded in a belief that our once "heretical" Church has slowly aligned itself to Chalcedonianism.
Iqbal |
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Fr.Kyrillos
Posts: 14
Joined: May 18, 2007
Location: San Diego
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| Posted:
Jul 10, 2008 - 10:16 PM |
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Dear Iqbal,
Thank you for the elaboration. I would be more than happy to discuss this topic with Fr. Dragas should I get an audience with him during his stay with us.
Having spent many years engaging EO on the subject of Chalcedon, I am well aware of this subtle agenda you mentioned. Is it not in the end about "saving face"? However, we also have our agenda on how to go about bringing reconciliation...it goes something like this:
-- Chalcedon was, if not outrightly, Nestorian, at least accepted by Nestorians.
-- Chalcedonians came back to St. Cyril in Constantinople II.
-- Therefore, the Chalcedonians of today are not the same as Chalcedonians of the 5th Century.
-- Chalecedon must be rejected as an Ecumenical Council while Constantinople II can be accepted.
Thus, we save face...and in the meantime, we make no progress towards unity.
I think we veered off topic 
Kyrillos |
_________________
Our continual mistake is that we do not concentrate upon the present day, the actual hour, of our life: we live in the past or in the future; we are continually expecting the coming of some special moment when our life will unfold itself in its full significance. And we do not notice that life is flowing like water through our fingers, sifting like precious grain from a loosely fastened bag.
Constantly, each day, each hour, God is sending us people, circumstances, tasks, which should mark the beginning of our renewal; yet we pay them no attention, and thus continually we resist God’s will for us. Indeed, how can God help us? Only by sending us in our daily life certain people, and certain coincidences of circumstance. If we accepted every hour of our life as the hour of God’s will for us, as the decisive, most important, unique hour of our life -- what sources of joy, love, strength, as yet hidden from us, would spring from the depths of our soul!
Fr. Alexander Elchaninov, Diary of a Russian Priest |
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lowlyman
Posts: 242
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
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Jul 14, 2008 - 01:12 PM |
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Fr.Kyrillos
As an eastern orthodox, I would like to commend you and the Diocese of Los Angeles for having father Dragas speak at Coptic Orthodox conferences. I think such a disposition is crucial towards the end goal of unity between our two churches. I also hope that Coptic Orthodox speakers would speak more often at eastern orthodox conferences.
By the way, is there a chance that the conference is being web streamed?
Thanks,
Lowlyman
| Fr.Kyrillos wrote: |
Dear Iqbal,
Thank you for the elaboration. I would be more than happy to discuss this topic with Fr. Dragas should I get an audience with him during his stay with us.
Having spent many years engaging EO on the subject of Chalcedon, I am well aware of this subtle agenda you mentioned. Is it not in the end about "saving face"? However, we also have our agenda on how to go about bringing reconciliation...it goes something like this:
-- Chalcedon was, if not outrightly, Nestorian, at least accepted by Nestorians.
-- Chalcedonians came back to St. Cyril in Constantinople II.
-- Therefore, the Chalcedonians of today are not the same as Chalcedonians of the 5th Century.
-- Chalecedon must be rejected as an Ecumenical Council while Constantinople II can be accepted.
Thus, we save face...and in the meantime, we make no progress towards unity.
I think we veered off topic
Kyrillos |
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Fr.Kyrillos
Posts: 14
Joined: May 18, 2007
Location: San Diego
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| Posted:
Jul 15, 2008 - 04:13 PM |
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| Quote: |
Fr.Kyrillos
As an eastern orthodox, I would like to commend you and the Diocese of Los Angeles for having father Dragas speak at Coptic Orthodox conferences. I think such a disposition is crucial towards the end goal of unity between our two churches. I also hope that Coptic Orthodox speakers would speak more often at eastern orthodox conferences.
By the way, is there a chance that the conference is being web streamed?
Thanks,
Lowlyman |
Dear Lowlyman,
God willing, we hope to provide streaming...we have some working on it. Pray for this. Keep checking:
http://www.copticlibrary.org/
God bless.
Kyrillos |
_________________
Our continual mistake is that we do not concentrate upon the present day, the actual hour, of our life: we live in the past or in the future; we are continually expecting the coming of some special moment when our life will unfold itself in its full significance. And we do not notice that life is flowing like water through our fingers, sifting like precious grain from a loosely fastened bag.
Constantly, each day, each hour, God is sending us people, circumstances, tasks, which should mark the beginning of our renewal; yet we pay them no attention, and thus continually we resist God’s will for us. Indeed, how can God help us? Only by sending us in our daily life certain people, and certain coincidences of circumstance. If we accepted every hour of our life as the hour of God’s will for us, as the decisive, most important, unique hour of our life -- what sources of joy, love, strength, as yet hidden from us, would spring from the depths of our soul!
Fr. Alexander Elchaninov, Diary of a Russian Priest |
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Peter
Posts: 428
Joined: Mar 18, 2003
Location: Jersey City, NJ
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Jul 16, 2008 - 07:41 AM |
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Publican
Posts: 108
Joined: Nov 18, 2005
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Jul 18, 2008 - 11:24 AM |
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lowlyman
Posts: 242
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
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Jul 18, 2008 - 01:15 PM |
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Thanks for posting Peter. interesting indeed. I found nothing in these videos to complain about.
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Publican
Posts: 108
Joined: Nov 18, 2005
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Jul 21, 2008 - 10:35 PM |
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Iqbal
Posts: 127
Joined: Nov 14, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 22, 2008 - 05:59 AM |
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Dear Abouna,
The motivation of Fr. Dragas’ negative comments are really none of my concern and don’t really bear much relevance to the essential point I am making viz. that he should not be giving talks in Coptic Churches on issues relevant to St Cyril or Christology in general if it so happens that he holds (for whatever reason(s)) to ideas adverse to the integrity of our Church.
| Quote: |
-- Chalcedon was, if not outrightly, Nestorian, at least accepted by Nestorians.
-- Chalcedonians came back to St. Cyril in Constantinople II.
-- Therefore, the Chalcedonians of today are not the same as Chalcedonians of the 5th Century.
-- Chalecedon must be rejected as an Ecumenical Council while Constantinople II can be accepted.
Thus, we save face... |
I would hope, Abouna, that these articles of faith are accepted by our clergy and laity alike on the basis of conviction and commitment to the OO faith and tradition, and not for the sake of ‘saving face.’
| Quote: |
| and in the meantime, we make no progress towards unity. |
Preserving the Tradition of the Church takes priority to re-union with any other Church. If the road to unity involves our OO faithful slowly and subtly, but surely, losing their God-crafted identity and falling out of touch with the great OO Fathers and Tradition, and conversely absorbing and in turn communicating to others a foreign identity through movements like a) sending our faithful to EO seminaries, and b) having our faithful taught by EO clergy, then may that unity be far from us. I have already seen the consequences of this: I have witnessed enough OO's converting to the EO Church, and OO's who could quote you John the Damascene off the top of their head, yet when you ask them to quote something from that glorious Saint of ours, the one who John the Damascene ignorantly derided, the great Saint Severus, they look at you with a blank face and ask, "Saint who"? Is this your vision for the future of the Church Abouna?
I have no problem with the EO tradition per se, and do in a sense support the Joint Agreements and the sentiment that we have a very similar worldview and approach to things theological and spiritual. But in the end, I will remain faithful to my OO tradition; to my Fathers, to my Faith. I can pick up a text by a great EO theologian or even a Byzantine Father and see a lot of spiritual wisdom and depth in it (at the same time I have, thankfully, not been sucked into the dangerously misleading “we’re one and the same Church and faith” mentality so as to lose all ability and inclination to approach these texts critically either) but when I am asked to present a paper at a symposium, or even when I am asked to give a presentation for the youth at one of their weekly meetings, I will refer strictly to the great Fathers, Saints, and traditions of the OO Church, for they remain the conclusively trustworthy and reliable sources of authority and it is to these authorities that I hope to encourage our faithful to look up to, for they are not only our most reliable and trustworthy authorities, but they are our Fathers and Mothers, whose living spirit and memory we have a duty to preserve and promote. They remain the greatest sources of inspiration, wisdom and truth, and they are lacking in absolutely nothing that I should seek and appeal to anything apart from them.
I have more to say but I shall save my further comments for PM. |
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lowlyman
Posts: 242
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
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Jul 22, 2008 - 11:22 AM |
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dear Iqbal,
if I may, i like to interject few words in this discussion. First, I'd like to commend you for wanting to preserve the OO tradition. I also understand your concerns with teaching the tradition to the younger generations. This is all good and well. I also appreciate how you depicted the eastern Orthodox tradition in your comments below.
however, I don't think you're giving full value to the benefits of such exchanges. For instance, I became aware of St. Severus of Antioch only through the Orthodox unity web site. Without the efforts to achieve unity, the typical eastern orthodox will keep thinking of St. Severus as heretic. That is clearly a tragedy to both the EO person and to the OO traddition. furthermore, if efforts toward the unity were to continue, then those who are familiar with St. John Damascus would also be familiar with St. Severus. That is unity tend and should preserve each tradition. it also gives both camps the opportunity to address the wrongs that they've done to each other. And it's about time.those who have been unjustly treated by both camps throughout the years receive their due glory for the lives they lived.
| Iqbal wrote: |
Dear Abouna,
The motivation of Fr. Dragas’ negative comments are really none of my concern and don’t really bear much relevance to the essential point I am making viz. that he should not be giving talks in Coptic Churches on issues relevant to St Cyril or Christology in general if it so happens that he holds (for whatever reason(s)) to ideas adverse to the integrity of our Church.
| Quote: |
-- Chalcedon was, if not outrightly, Nestorian, at least accepted by Nestorians.
-- Chalcedonians came back to St. Cyril in Constantinople II.
-- Therefore, the Chalcedonians of today are not the same as Chalcedonians of the 5th Century.
-- Chalecedon must be rejected as an Ecumenical Council while Constantinople II can be accepted.
Thus, we save face... |
I would hope, Abouna, that these articles of faith are accepted by our clergy and laity alike on the basis of conviction and commitment to the OO faith and tradition, and not for the sake of ‘saving face.’
| Quote: |
| and in the meantime, we make no progress towards unity. |
Preserving the Tradition of the Church takes priority to re-union with any other Church. If the road to unity involves our OO faithful slowly and subtly, but surely, losing their God-crafted identity and falling out of touch with the great OO Fathers and Tradition, and conversely absorbing and in turn communicating to others a foreign identity through movements like a) sending our faithful to EO seminaries, and b) having our faithful taught by EO clergy, then may that unity be far from us. I have already seen the consequences of this: I have witnessed enough OO's converting to the EO Church, and OO's who could quote you John the Damascene off the top of their head, yet when you ask them to quote something from that glorious Saint of ours, the one who John the Damascene ignorantly derided, the great Saint Severus, they look at you with a blank face and ask, "Saint who"? Is this your vision for the future of the Church Abouna?
I have no problem with the EO tradition per se, and do in a sense support the Joint Agreements and the sentiment that we have a very similar worldview and approach to things theological and spiritual. But in the end, I will remain faithful to my OO tradition; to my Fathers, to my Faith. I can pick up a text by a great EO theologian or even a Byzantine Father and see a lot of spiritual wisdom and depth in it (at the same time I have, thankfully, not been sucked into the dangerously misleading “we’re one and the same Church and faith” mentality so as to lose all ability and inclination to approach these texts critically either) but when I am asked to present a paper at a symposium, or even when I am asked to give a presentation for the youth at one of their weekly meetings, I will refer strictly to the great Fathers, Saints, and traditions of the OO Church, for they remain the conclusively trustworthy and reliable sources of authority and it is to these authorities that I hope to encourage our faithful to look up to, for they are not only our most reliable and trustworthy authorities, but they are our Fathers and Mothers, whose living spirit and memory we have a duty to preserve and promote. They remain the greatest sources of inspiration, wisdom and truth, and they are lacking in absolutely nothing that I should seek and appeal to anything apart from them.
I have more to say but I shall save my further comments for PM. |
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minasoliman
Posts: 1757
Joined: May 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Sep 10, 2008 - 05:56 PM |
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I know this is late in reply, but I personally want to add that while I support unity with the Eastern Orthodox, I am also worried about how many of our people are losing touch with the post-Chalcedonian Oriental Orthodox fathers. I was saddened when a fellow Sunday School teacher teaching about "ecumenical councils" tended to agree with the chart on the so-called "heresy of Severus," when I told the students that they should cross that out and instead add him to the list of "Pillars of Faith" in the Church.
But I hope that this is just a phase. Sure, I'd rather for people to use Orthodox material than Protestant material, but I also hope OUR material gets enough popularity some time in the near future. And if indeed we are for unity, we must first educate our Church on the unity we already have with our sister churches and their histories, and not just teach Coptic history. It at least made me more appreciative of [Oriental] Orthodoxy.
God bless. |
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