| Integrated Coptic Orthodox Forums
|
| Author |
Message |
coptichymnsman
Posts: 389
Joined: Apr 21, 2003
Location: Sydney Australia NSW
|
 Posted:
Sep 26, 2008 - 02:55 AM |
 
|
I think there was a previous post regarding this, but nonetheless
I have 2 of my best friends (coptic orthodox) who drink sometimes and sometimes just get intoxicated while at others just enjoy a small drink here and there after exams.
I have argued my lungs out with them to tell them we are against drinking, and basically they are just waiting for me to drop a good argument down their throats and they will stop drinking, but i am all out of arguments and i hate to see them drink and i hate being in a bar myself but i sometimes just go to indulge them and watch them get drunk or just so i can take care of whatever moseeba they might get themselves in if they get too drunk..*sigh*
I have used every ailment and verse i could think of and we debated for hours about this topic, i just need help and some fresh ideas from anyone who might be able to help, so please, share with us here your thoughts
When i see a thought or an idea here i will be sure to let you know how they take it or took it depending if i talked to them about it before.
I am pretty sure this doesnt only just happen to me, i know heaps of youth do the same thing and others in my place don't know what to do/say to them, so i think this will help many. 
God bless and many prayers
1Peter5:10 |
_________________
"The fear of the wicked will come upon him, and the desire of the righteous will be granted" (Proverbs 10 : 24) |
|
  
  |
|
Truth.Seeker
Posts: 432
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
|
| Posted:
Sep 26, 2008 - 06:00 AM |
|
“Neither thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards shall inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor. 6:10)
I guess the debate becomes about the definition of "drunkards" - certainly if I wanted to drink, I'd argue, "oh, this means someone who's habitually drunk and does stupid things when he/she is drunk; I only drink occasionally, so that doesn't apply to me."
Then you can pull this one out:
“Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness...envy...drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God” (Gal. 5:19, 21).
Surely if your friends get drunk then they are practicing "drunkenness."
That said, Jesus's first miracle was turning water into wine, so drinking is permitted at some level. It's also clear that not drinking is better than drinking - remember when St. Paul told Timothy to not just drink water but to drink some wine for his ailment? Obviously St. Timothy wasn't drinking wine because he thought it'd be wrong. Also, people like John the Baptist were strictly prohibited from drinking.
Conclusion: easier to argue that not drinking is better than drinking. But, you can also use Galatians 5:19-21 above. |
|
|
|
|
|
mikokiko
Posts: 1027
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
|
| Posted:
Sep 26, 2008 - 06:39 AM |
|
Truth.Seeker, I think it is important to remember that giving something up is always done as a means towards something else. It is undoubtedly against Christian thought to call any of God's creations inherently sinful, whether that be alcohol, or our sexual organs, or anything else. But let's not forgot that what we do is a means to an end, nothing more and nothing less. Giving up alcohol is so that we can perfect the virtue of being Self-controlled. Why? Because the danger of drinking alcohol is that we might abuse it. And how do we abuse that? When we allow a substance to intoxicate and control us. It is not the substance that controls us, but we the substance, and this is the gravest of all sins. Whether it be addiction, intoxication or whatever, Christ commanded us to be in control. St. Paul said: "All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any."
Alcohol in and of itself is not sinful. "It is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, but what comes out of him" says our Lord. And St. Paul says: "I am convinced by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself". That is why we have no Jewish laws of kosher eating any longer. Of course, I am aware that you know these things.
But the point is, we are free by Christ's law of liberality, to do whatever we want, but we must quick to judge that everything we do is a means to something else. The giving up of alcohol, is so that I do not run the risk of losing control of my body. But what if I am able to do the same and still drink? Am I still not as good as him who gave up alcohol? Certainly not, for we both acquired the same virtue. Like we said drinking Alcohol is not a sin in and of itself, but it MIGHT cause us to do. If we remain self-controlled then well. However giving up alcohol is also what gives one the virtue of self-sacrifice. But what if I am able to reach this virtue by doing something else? Then well. I am no less than any alcohol abstainer. It is of course, easier to reach all these virtues by simply giving up alcohol together.
And that brings us to one of the most classical of the Christian virtues, that the pagan world ignored for so long: The Virtue of Temperance, or what we might call in the modern day, the virtue of Moderation. That we can be married and yet control ourselves and reach the same virtue offered by Celibacy, or drink, but reach the same virtue as those abstaining from alcohol. The only better thing about Celibacy than marriage, and abstaining from alcohol than drinking it, is that it is easier to reach those virtues. It is easier to be self-controlled when you don't drink any alcohol. It's easier to be dedicated to Christ when you are Celibate, and focused on God (as St. Paul says of the wife, who is always looking to please her husband), but we can still do the same just as well if we are married. That is why St. Augustine says:
"To many, total abstinence is easier than perfect moderation."
God Bless |
|
|
|
|
|
mikokiko
Posts: 1027
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
|
| Posted:
Sep 26, 2008 - 06:40 AM |
|
And St. Augustine best illustrates the issue of marriage, quite beautiful when he says:
For many it is indeed easier to abstain so as not to use [married sexual relations] at all, than to control themselves so as to use them aright.') |
|
|
|
|
|
Truth.Seeker
Posts: 432
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
|
| Posted:
Sep 26, 2008 - 06:50 AM |
|
(Not sure why the marriage thing is on this thread, but I agree with your post about alcohol). Of course the substance itself is not evil - we use it for communion. I thought that was implied in my post - that's for explicitly pointing it out. |
|
|
|
|
|
Truth.Seeker
Posts: 432
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
|
| Posted:
Sep 26, 2008 - 06:59 AM |
|
|
|
|
|
meenas
Posts: 135
Joined: Jul 24, 2003
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted:
Sep 26, 2008 - 07:00 AM |
|
Hi,
I don't think drinking itself is haram. This whole concept of haram/halal is foreign to Christianity and, I think, is only a cultural influence of the Islamic society we come from.
The Christian understanding is that anything that might inhibit our 'good Christian' behaviour, by being drunk for example, is to be avoided. So the prohibition is not on the alcohol itself, but on the negative results that may come from it. In short, I believe drinking to the point of inebriation, where your judgement and actions become impaired, is wrong and against the teachings pointed out above.
A person who enjoys a little drink at the pub with mates or while watching the footy, is not necessarily doing anything wrong, so long as he is mature enough to know his limits and is willful enough to actually stop. If he can't do that, then better to stay away from drinking altogether till he learn.
My two cents worth, |
|
|
|
|
|
Truth.Seeker
Posts: 432
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
|
| Posted:
Sep 26, 2008 - 07:03 AM |
|
I agree with your post except your first two lines about "halal and haram." Christianity, 600 years older than Islam talks about virtues and sins. For example, murder, in itself is "haram." |
|
|
|
|
|
mikokiko
Posts: 1027
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
|
| Posted:
Sep 26, 2008 - 08:04 PM |
|
Well, the way we use the words is not against Christian teaching, but the way the Muslims do certainly is. For example, have you ever bought meat from Egypt? It has to have the words Halal on it. What??? Because Muslims can only eat things that are Halal and not Haram. Pork is Haram period. Alcohol is Haram period. Stepping into the bathroom with your left foot first is Haram period (according to some Hadiths).
It's this legalistic code of wrongs and rights that keeps them from acquiring the true internal and spiritual virtues. Its the piece of cloth that women in the Middle East hide under, that converts them from being promiscuous naughty women, to modest angels. They completely ignore the spiritual side of life, and focus solely on the physical. Christ could have done similarly but He was teaching the crowds the essence of the Perfect Man, not what His actions are. God doesn't want performers of works, but a certain person. He changes us from the inside-out, NOT from the outside-in.
God Bless |
|
|
|
|
|
PaulS
Ask me for help!
Posts: 2441
Joined: Sep 09, 2002
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony Coptic Orthodox Church in Norco, CA
|
| Posted:
Sep 26, 2008 - 08:07 PM |
|
Hello,
I referenced in another post the following verse, which is apropos to this question:
“For whatever is not from faith is sin.” (Romans 14:23) |
|
|
 
|
|
Fady.Kozman
Posts: 81
Joined: Jun 26, 2004
Location: Sydney Australia
|
| Posted:
Sep 29, 2008 - 12:08 PM |
|
the mindset is such that, as long as it is moderate, it isn't excessive and only social drinking, then its not wrong, i can't agree to that
"whats wrong with a beer after an exam?"
"whats wrong with socially drinking and making friends over drinks?"
"whats wrong with one drink at dinner?"
i end up saying that my personal view and personal feeling is that it is not appropriate, and if you can't drink in the presence of a priest say, what makes you think you can drink behind his back? (ironically, that back-fired when we debated about 'degree' of appropriateness and things you can see a priest do or things you can do infront of a priest, i.e. can a priest swim?).
As i said before, all they want is a good argument, lol, but i am out of ideas and i have tried all that was said above, i even sent it in msgs (the bible verses) and i included it in convos to try and prolong the debate lol, still nothing
yalla, keep praying
peace
James 3:1 |
|
|
|
|
|
Publican
Posts: 108
Joined: Nov 18, 2005
|
| Posted:
Sep 29, 2008 - 07:05 PM |
|
Hello All,
From a purely historical, liturgical, and theological perspective it is laughable to consider the consumption of alcohol a sin. This is purely a result of Islamic influence. The fact that we could deem alcohol sinful completely challenges our theology of matter and the world, and our eucharistic theology. Besides the obvious biblical references (be it events/prayers in the OT or the actions of Christ), it is clear to from such fathers as Paul, Justin Martyr, Ignatius and most of all Irenaeus that this is not a Christian understanding.
Historically the rejection of alcohol was an early heresy that led to eucharistic celebration using water. These heretics, the Encratites, were vehemently opposed by Ignatius, Justin, Irenaeus and Clement of Alexandria.
We must be wary of the theological implications of making such sweeping statements such as alcohol is sinful. It absolutely destroys the Orthodox understanding of the Eucharist as understood by the Fathers.
The Eucharist is the Church. It is in the Eucharist where we take the good gifts God has given us for our pleasure and satisfaction, wheat and grapes, and we through our own labor conform them to bread and wine and offer them back to the Trinity in thanksgiving (eucharistia). It is than that God in his mercy blesses them and returns them to us not as bread and wine, but as Himself, his body and blood, in the form of bread and wine uniting us with him and all that participate...thereby establishing the Church.
In this confession, it is vital that we maintain the sanctity of offering, be it bread or wine. We offer what is good from creation. St. Irenaues has a beautiful passage in Against the Heresies where he explains how it is the supreme blessing for creation to become Eucharist, the vehicle of grace, life, and incorruptibility.
Everything that God has given us is good, it is up to us to use his blessings in the proper manner.
In Christ,
Publican |
_________________
"Fight the battle for your Heart" -- St. Antony the Great
"Sit in the presence of the Lord every moment of your life, as you think of him and recollect him in your heart." -- St. Isaac the Syrian
The greater the Knowledge of God, the greater the Love, and the greater the Love for God the greater the Knowledge, the greater the Love, the greater the Knowledge, the greater the Suffering.-- St. Silouan |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB2 and the coptichymns.net Network of Coptic Hymns and Coptic Orthodox Sites.
| |
|
|
Productions
