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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 806
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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 Posted:
Mar 04, 2010 - 08:40 PM |
 
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Your first paragraph: nothing new, I already said Orthodox can go to hell, and that implies everyone else can go to hell.
Your second paragraph: yes, it's clear that he's talking about the antichrist - so what?
Your third paragraph: again, nothing new, see my note to your first paragraph.
Your fourth paragraph: your witness for what?
Your fifth paragraph: I bring this up with Protestants I talk to all the time. But now you tell me, was Korah not Jewish? 
Your sixth paragraph: so Protestants are wrong? Yes they are.
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Note that your 1st and 3rd paragraphs apply to Orthodox just like anyone else you want to apply them to. If you're going to use that as evidence that Protestants are not Christian, then you need to use them to say Orthodox are not Christian - which is dumb. |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 806
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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Mar 04, 2010 - 08:42 PM |
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This discussion is largely useless because the word "Christian" itself is just a word that is trying to refer to something. If you're so upset about it, don't use it, but you can't expect the world to change how it speaks because you don't want to apply that word to certain people. |
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eluzai
Posts: 34
Joined: Jul 18, 2007
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Mar 08, 2010 - 08:28 PM |
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Not sure if we are understanding each other again. I am not JUST applying this to protestants, this clearly can apply to Orthodox people as well. I dont recall saying that. That would imply all you have to do is be baptized Orthodox and then thats it, which is similar to the heresy of salvation in a moment. So we agree on that part. I use witnesses to validate my argument, just as St John Chrysostom and many other saints have.
The main point of the argument that protestants are not Christian and protestantism in itself is not of God, is to show people that we cannot validate their claims, what would make them want to become Orthodox which is much harder if they can attain salvation as a protestant? I debated a priest who claimed protestants are indeed Christian, but lack the full revelation of Christ. That is anti scriptural, as I posted in my last post.
I dont know why you keep putting words into my mouth, when did I say that I only want the word "Christian" to apply to certain people? Anyone can call themselves anything, I personally dont care. I am merely pointing out that they are incorrect in using this label. I feel as if I have brought forth many witnesses on my behalf, as you clearly have seen if you have read my posts, and need to argue this no further unless you can disprove this.
Do you have any witness? You have used your own reason and logic to try and disprove the argument. This is the flaw in your argument, you are using too much reason and no scripture and have not once mentioned an early church father. Even a protestant would have given me a multitude of scriptures, you have provided none. So again, I have shown you what St Paul, St John Chrysostom, and Christ Himself has said, who are we to disagree with them? |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 806
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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Mar 14, 2010 - 08:59 AM |
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"The main point of the argument that protestants are not Christian and protestantism in itself is not of God, is to show people that we cannot validate their claims, what would make them want to become Orthodox which is much harder if they can attain salvation as a protestant?"
I've already replied to this a long time ago.
What's funny is that you follow that with this:
"I dont know why you keep putting words into my mouth, when did I say that I only want the word "Christian" to apply to certain people? Anyone can call themselves anything, I personally dont care. I am merely pointing out that they are incorrect in using this label."
You went from saying it'll help their salvation if you don't call them Christian to saying you don't care if they're using that label.
It's not that we're misunderstanding each other, it's that you're misunderstanding yourself .
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WITNESS FOR WHAT? Go find me a part in the Bible that says, "the word Christian is hereby and forever more defined as ..." Then you'll have your witness. |
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eluzai
Posts: 34
Joined: Jul 18, 2007
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Mar 15, 2010 - 06:28 AM |
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I am telling you that I dont care what label they use for themselve,. Protestant, Pente, Christian, whatever. What I am saying is that we cannot validate their claim that they ARE Christians, that they ARE the same as Orthodox. The reason being is this: we then tell them that what they are doing is correct, we are telling our own people that what they are doing is correct, when it is not.
I could care less what label they use, I am speaking of validating their beliefs not the actual label itself. We wouldnt say, dont use the word Christian. We should say your beliefs are not Orthodox, they are incorrect. Again, you clearly do not understand what I am saying, and it almost seems your doing it purposely. You clearly interpret what I am saying as something else. Look back in my other posts and you will clearly see the saints that speak for me.
Why in the heck are you focusing on the word Christian so much? When my argument is against validating their beliefs. |
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AMoussa01
Posts: 576
Joined: Jan 08, 2007
Location: St. George and St. Joseph in San Jose California
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Mar 15, 2010 - 12:46 PM |
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What is the point to this discussion? Whatever it is, its irrelevant. I doubt anyone is benefiting from this topic whatsoever (if I am wrong, then please...someone feel free to post). Copts are not trying to unite with protestantism at all, just as truth-seeker pointed out earlier. I suggest you listen to Father Peter's advice which he stated on tasbeha.org 
I hope you do not take this as an attack. The point I'm trying to make is, its not our job to say who will be saved and who will not be saved. Let God be the judge as to whether who He believes is His son or daughter. In the meantime, lets try and benefit from the season of lent which is upon us!
God bless
Tony |
_________________
Tony Moza,
HCOC Distant Member
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it! |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 806
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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Mar 17, 2010 - 05:50 AM |
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Words of wisdom, Tony. But I have a feeling my words might register with eluzai, probably not right away, but at some point. Other than that, this was a complete waste of time. |
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eluzai
Posts: 34
Joined: Jul 18, 2007
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Mar 23, 2010 - 07:28 AM |
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Anytime this topic is discussed this very same thing gets brought up, "you cannot say who is going to heaven or hell." I am not saying who is and isnt going to hell, but there is a right way to worship God and a wrong way. Truthseeker seems to completely ignore everything I say, and if he does read something he seems to take it out of context. Copts are indeed attempting to unite with protestants by being part of the WCC, which as their website clearly states, seeks to create a universal church by finding common belief.
With truthseeker it seems to be an "I am right, your wrong" type of argument where he only seeks to "win" as opposed to actually listen to what is being said. Again read my other posts in which I bring fourth witnesses, St. John Chrysostom, St. Paul, and Christ! If you are arguing a case in court, wouldnt a witness or two help? So far you have failed miserably in making your argument.
I am not sure if you both dont understand what I am trying to say or what is going on. I feel I have been very clear on this subject. If you think the WCC is strictly for dialogue, well then you should do some more homework, dialogue is another way to say unity, that is clearly their goal.
Oh and truthseeker please do not talk down to me. |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 806
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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Mar 23, 2010 - 09:11 PM |
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1) You better hope that I think I am right, otherwise you would have been arguing with someone who thinks that he is wrong and still arguing.
2) You are the one who is just trying to "win" because you have contradicted yourself several times and you still maintain that you are correct. It's one thing to maintain you are correct when you are disagreeing with someone else. It's another thing to maintain that you are correct when you keep disagreeing with yourself.
3) You bring forth witnesses for what? What is it that you said that your witnesses back up?
4) The goal of the WCC IS unity - I do not disagree with you there and we have been over this already. I am telling you as long as we stay Orthodox, that's just fine.
5) Truth.Seeker hereby declares that he is seeking unity with the whole world, even non-Christians - so long as we all unite under Orthodoxy. Get my point? |
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irishpilgrim
Posts: 5
Joined: Jan 26, 2009
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Jul 31, 2010 - 07:16 PM |
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I have been involved in other matters which have kept me from following the recent posts on this blessed site. During my absence, several discussions which especially interest me have occurred. I believe this dialogue between eluzai and Truth.Seeker concerns vital issues in the Coptic Church today. Eluzai indicated that he was working on or thinking about more analysis of the seemingly real, actual demonic influences that Protestantism and Roman Catholicism ( and “greek” orthodoxy) are having on the teachings and pastoral practices of the Coptic Church’s present leadership. I hope that Truth.Seeker’s seemingly unwarranted insulting and ad hominem responses didn’t discourage eluzai from pursuing and sharing his important further insights and issues. Eluzai indicates that he has personally experienced and has parsed the Protestantism of his own family members. His insights have enlightened me. I was a seriously practicing American Irish Catholic for 50 years and find his references to R. Catholicism to be reasonably valid.
I would like an explanation for Truth.Seeker’s vehement ridicule of the proposal that financial globalization is a prophetic element of Satan’s preparation for his final appearance and reign. World financial unification is a reasonable mechanism for the beast’s persuasive financial oppression and control that is referred to at Rev. 13:16-17. This seems to fit well with the Coptic (and universal Christian Church) leadership’s unapologetic general obeisance to varying degrees of wealth, glitz and affluence. This predisposition of church leaders to subservience to wealth could be a major factor in the eventual seduction of most of the Christian (?) churches to worship of Antichrist, Antitheotokos and Satan.
So, I find that eluzai’s too “coptic,” humble, apologetic retreat from Truth.Seeker’s uncalled for verbal “backhand” and bullying, after eluzai’s retreat, tends to devalue eluzai’s realistic, valid concerns for the Coptic Church’s leadership’s current flirtations with “modern,” liberal, already failed “protestant/catholic/’greek’ orthodox”-like experiments with liberalism/ecumenicism, (which includes Coptic atheistic/anti-biblical/anti-patriarchal “christian” psychological sermons/counselling/manipulations/teaching methods; and polite acquiescence to always present, uncovered, bold, loud, rebellious feminist censors/ ”protestors” at all Coptic bible study, marriage and family relationship activities). Sadly, Coptic examples of the always accompanying, seemingly inevitable, “catholic/ protestant/’greek’ orthodox”-like perverted sexual proclivities and abuses (and God hated divorce) are already prominently occurring to embarass and warn the lax Coptic leadership.
I hope eluzai will complete and share his analysis of the grave dangers to the Coptic Church of continuing to theologically and pastorally pursue these steadily advancing, seemingly proven to be irreversible “catholic/protestant/’greek’ orthodox”-like modern heterodoxies, and thereby help to enlighten and encourage those Orthodox Copts who seek to be prepared to survive all of the deceptions and oppressions of Satan’s final appearance. |
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+Our Father, blessed are your Ways and Statutes. Those who love You know and obey them. Deliver Your orthodox families, children and people from the error, misery and confusion caused by unaware, disinterested, proud, fearful, rebellious or innovative patriarchs, bishops, priests, false teachers, influences and spirits who seek to ignore, change, compromise, and destroy the Holy patriarchal gender and family orders and laws that You have established for Your Orthodox Christian Churches and people from the beginning and forever and ever. For their salvation, admonish them with the wisdom, understanding and knowledge of Malachi 2:1-9, 13-17.+ |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 806
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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| Posted:
Aug 02, 2010 - 06:37 AM |
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| irishpilgrim wrote: |
I would like an explanation for Truth.Seeker’s vehement ridicule of the proposal that financial globalization is a prophetic element of Satan’s preparation for his final appearance and reign. World financial unification is a reasonable mechanism for the beast’s persuasive financial oppression and control that is referred to at Rev. 13:16-17. |
Let's look at Revelations 13:16-17
16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
This can be achieved in the feudal system as much as in a highly integrated global economy. Notice that the beast isn't going to attack financial institutions. He's going to put a mark on people.
It is nonsense interpretations that bring about ridicule. If someone doesn't want to get ridiculed, all he has to do is not say nonsense. |
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irishpilgrim
Posts: 5
Joined: Jan 26, 2009
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Aug 03, 2010 - 02:20 PM |
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I will agree that the beast is probably not going to attack his own financial institutions. Especially not the one which controls the eventual global financial systems. We have all recently seen the weaker world financial institutions which are attacked and devoured by their big brother banks by using the U.S. citizen and Congressional approved present and future debt obligations and war blood of our children and their children, etc.. Doesn't seem to be out of context with Rev. 13. Makes sense to me.
I look forward to benefiting from more spiritual insights and analyses that eluzai may make of the knowledge we should have and the precautions we should exercise before we compromise or acquiesce to agreement and/or approval of the claimed/imagined apostate beliefs of Protestants and Roman Catholics (who have abandoned/invented orthodox roots/criticisms for their own reasons). The American "greek" orthodox have also silently, approvingly innovated dangerous heterodox accomodations to "save face" (such as feminism, divorce, psychological -in lieu of biblical-family counselling and promised women priesthood) which appeal to the major openly rebellious faction in the Coptic Church. I doubt that many lay Copts, except the sharp eared, self-serving Coptic feminists, have heard Pope Shenouda’s (unwritten and/or vaguely written) support of the crux of these same apostate heterodoxies.
I’m praying for you, eluzai. God gives us different experiences to help us stay, alone, on the narrow way when our leaders stray. |
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+Our Father, blessed are your Ways and Statutes. Those who love You know and obey them. Deliver Your orthodox families, children and people from the error, misery and confusion caused by unaware, disinterested, proud, fearful, rebellious or innovative patriarchs, bishops, priests, false teachers, influences and spirits who seek to ignore, change, compromise, and destroy the Holy patriarchal gender and family orders and laws that You have established for Your Orthodox Christian Churches and people from the beginning and forever and ever. For their salvation, admonish them with the wisdom, understanding and knowledge of Malachi 2:1-9, 13-17.+ |
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Truth.Seeker
Posts: 806
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
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| Posted:
Aug 03, 2010 - 03:25 PM |
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Your post makes such little sense that this is in order:
| St. Basil the Great wrote: |
"The very obviousness of the absurdity makes it difficult for us to find arguments to confute their unreasonableness; so that really their folly looks like an advantage to them; just as soft and yielding bodies offer no resistance, and therefore cannot be struck a stout blow." |
| irishpilgrim wrote: |
Doesn't seem to be out of context with Rev. 13. Makes sense to me. |
You went from Rev. 13:16-17 to Rev. 13 generally. Saying something makes sense to you is not an argument. Every single war in the history of the world wouldn't "seem to be out of context with Rev. 13". What does globalization have to do with it?
| irishpilgrim wrote: |
The American "greek" orthodox have also silently, approvingly innovated dangerous heterodox accomodations to "save face" (such as feminism, divorce, psychological -in lieu of biblical-family counselling and promised women priesthood) which appeal to the major openly rebellious faction in the Coptic Church. I doubt that many lay Copts, except the sharp eared, self-serving Coptic feminists, have heard Pope Shenouda’s (unwritten and/or vaguely written) support of the crux of these same apostate heterodoxies. |
And these heteredox accomodations are ... ? I can claim watermelons can fly if the standard is just making the statement, not proving it. |
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